Podcast Episode 334: The Truth About Postpartum Depression Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

JoAnn Crohn (00:06.626)

Welcome to the no guilt mom podcast. am your host JoAnn Crohn joined here by the lovely Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker (00:09.477)

Yo, yo, yo, what’s up, what’s up? I’m trying something different. I’m trying something different. It’s a new year, it’s a new tagline for Brie. So let’s see what I can do in 2025.

JoAnn Crohn (00:12.416)

That’s a new one. Yeah. my gosh. There you go. New year. Jack. Are you going to keep so any-hoosier? are you going to keep that one?

Brie Tucker (00:27.901)

That’s like a Midwest thing. That’s like the y’all and all of that. Like it’s not going away anytime soon.

JoAnn Crohn (00:35.616)

Yeah, well, we’ll segue, we’ll segue. Because now we’re going to talk about postpartum depression, which is a totally different story.

Brie Tucker (00:40.413)

We’ll get on our little takeaways and turn.

JoAnn Crohn (00:50.188)

segue the entire world that we tested. It’s okay.

Brie Tucker (00:53.421)

We were just on our little segues and we just imagine it’s Paul Blark on his little segue and returning and then now we’re moving into the episode…

JoAnn Crohn (01:00.714)

It’s, it’s all good. We have a wonderful guest for you today. Her name is Sarah Hoover and she’s the author of The Motherload, which releases today. I have it in front of me. And she holds a master’s degree in cultural theory from Columbia and a BA in art history from NYU. Her writing has been featured in Mother Tongue, The Strategist and Vogue.

The memoir focuses on Sarah’s understanding of her postpartum depression and how she was able to persevere and eventually give birth to a second child. And it’s all set against the backdrop of one of my favorite cities in the world, New York City, and a little bit in LA as well. Another one of my favorite cities. So we hope you enjoy our interview with Sarah. Here we go. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. I’m so excited to have you here and with us.

Sarah Hoover (01:51.151)

I’m so happy to be here but I’m embarrassed because I didn’t know I needed a tagline.

JoAnn Crohn (01:55.04)

You need a tagline? we could help you.

Sarah Hoover (01:57.007)

I messed up and that one was so good. That was a really good performance. And by the way, I am a Hoosier. So even your backup tagline really spoke to me.

JoAnn Crohn (02:03.887)

I don’t know.

Brie Tucker (02:04.113)

Yay!

I love it!

JoAnn Crohn (02:09.876)

As soon as I said Eddie Hoosier, I’m like, wait, Sarah’s from Indiana. guys, so podcast listeners out there, we actually record the introduction with Sarah watching. But I’m not supposed to mention Sarah until after we introduce her. anyways, but I was going to be like, shout out to Sarah.

Sarah Hoover (02:13.784)

That’s right.

Brie Tucker (02:24.317)

because there’s podcasts producing rules that Bri lives by and there is an order. That’s where my like little tendency of don’t move, that’s where my other nickname comes from Sarah of don’t move my cheese, Bri. So I’m named after a cheese and we also can’t move my cheese. Cause I get upset when my order gets moved.

Sarah Hoover (02:29.583)

Mm-hmm.

JoAnn Crohn (02:30.728)

Right there.

JoAnn Crohn (02:41.494)

She

Sarah Hoover (02:41.775)

I am.

Sarah Hoover (02:47.012)

That’s a beautiful thing. First of all, to be named after a cheese, what an honor. What a true honor, yes, but I get you. Don’t mess with my cheese. Yeah, I’m on your level.

Brie Tucker (02:55.953)

Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (02:59.145)

Totally. Well, Sarah, I’m excited to talk about this book because first of all, like it is such like a joy to read. It is completely like it brings you into another world. Like I could be there with you while you’re experiencing these things. I mean, you’re such a gifted writer. So like you out there in podcast land listening right now, go and grab this book and you’ll see also why, because we’re going to dig into a little bit of Sarah’s story here because Sarah, grew up in Indiana and you moved to New York City. So first of all, I kind of want to know like, what was the reasoning behind moving from the Midwest to the city?

Brie Tucker (03:36.657)

besides the fact that it’s the Midwest. As somebody from the Midwest. Sorry.

JoAnn Crohn (03:39.402)

Okay.

Sarah Hoover (03:43.298)

Okay, well, full disclosure, I love the Midwest and my family is still in Indiana, so I go home a lot, okay?

JoAnn Crohn (03:43.435)

Yeah

Brie Tucker (03:48.795)

Yeah, so, so Brie, those are fighting words, be quiet. Gotcha, gotcha.

Sarah Hoover (03:52.374)

watch it Brie, okay, I’ll come for your cheese. I will touch your cheese. I just got so real so fast. I’m sorry I would never mess with your cheese. That was a joke. But I loved growing up in Indiana. It was totally magical. And like, I, you know, lived there in the 90s and I didn’t have cell phones and all this stuff people have now. And so it was just like truly a magical place to grow up among the cornfields. But

Brie Tucker (03:55.549)

Alright.Fear on my face right now, God.

JoAnn Crohn (04:05.162)

Hahaha!

Sarah Hoover (04:22.191)

I think I studied dance and as a kid, most little girls do, I took ballet, but I got really into it. And I did a summer camp one year and I saw a ballet by a company that’s based in New York and the ballet was about New York City. And it like blew my mind. And I was like, my God, I have to live in the place where people make art like this. I have to see what those people are like. I have to know. And so it kind of planted a seed. And then I knew I wanted to study art history. I took an art history class.

Brie Tucker (04:43.282)

Yeah.

Sarah Hoover (04:51.761)

in high school and I absolutely loved it. My grandfather would take me to the museum in Indianapolis every weekend and there’s no better place in America to study art history than in New York. So I kind of was like, all right, I’ll apply to colleges in New York and see if I get in. I mean, what no one told me is how lonely and cold and miserable those first years would be in New York City without my mom and my friends from Indiana. Cause I kind of went alone. didn’t have, you know, a lot of my friends in Indiana, went to state school or went to other schools in the Midwest. And it like, I was very lonely for a long time in New York and it was really hard, but I’ve lived here now longer than I lived in Indiana. It’s like, you know, I’ve been here my whole life. And after I went to college here, I was like, started working in the art world, which is really centered in New York. So I, it had its hooks in me by then, you know, but I love Indiana. Every time I go back, I’m like, my God. So you’re telling me you just put all your stuff in the car and then you drive it around. Like.

What a delight, that’s so easy, yeah.

Brie Tucker (05:50.045)

did you forget about that? Wait, wait, you’re telling me that there’s grass and you guys can like just go for a walk?

Sarah Hoover (05:55.218)

Amazing, yeah. You see nature? Yeah, it’s incredible. It’s a special place. But yeah, so I started working in the gallery world and I worked at an amazing art gallery, a big international art gallery starting actually while I was still in graduate school. And I stayed there until I sold my book. Like it was the only job I ever really had in New York as an adult.

JoAnn Crohn (05:56.428)

They’re gonna make me sick. It’s incredible. Wow.

Sarah Hoover (06:18.29)

And I loved it, but I was like at one place for 13 years, you know? And then I sold my book and I never even thought of myself as a writer. Like I wrote academic stuff, you know, for school, that kind of thing. I wrote press releases when I worked in the gallery, that kind of thing. But I had never thought I was like worth telling my own story and I couldn’t help it. I just started writing and I was like, I have no idea. I mean, your compliments are so kind and I appreciate them so much, but I have no idea if I’m a good writer. No, thank you.

JoAnn Crohn (06:35.872)

Yeah. Well, you have such an interesting story, too. It’s so interesting, because Brie and I were talking about it. And Brie was like, she’s basically like Charlotte in Sex and the City working in this art gallery and everything. so what I found so interesting was you were there in the art gallery. And then all of a sudden, a call came in from one of these artists you really, really revered. You heard his name. Tell us about that call.

Sarah Hoover (07:10.865)

Okay, it was in my first days of work and this artist called for to speak to someone else at the, he did not call to talk to me. Okay, I just like, was the person picking up the phones? Yeah, to be clear, I wanna be real clear. And I just immediately heard something in his voice where I was like, my God, this man sounds so special. He sounds so warm and kind and so interesting. And he was kind of like,

Brie Tucker (07:21.917)

You’re like, let me be clearer.

Sarah Hoover (07:40.081)

the type of person that you’re right that I really revered because he had dedicated his whole life to like making art and to the ideals of the art world. And that was so mythical to me, you know? And I had actually studied his work in art history in school and I had seen it in museums and I remembered seeing it. I remembered showing it to my mom at one point. And so I thought I was like the coolest person in the world that I was talking to this guy in real life, right? And yeah, then I married him.

I was like, you’re stuck with me now, buddy.

Brie Tucker (08:11.89)

Just for the listeners if you have a little bit of whiplash that’s because we did just jump from the first time they spoke to now they’re married so

Sarah Hoover (08:19.398)

Yeah, yeah, sorry, I fast forwarded things slightly.

Brie Tucker (08:22.457)

No, sorry. Like honestly, the meat and the potatoes are like after the being married part. Cause like your book was, I love how I, I just 100 % can understand where you were at, what you were going through. And it was just, it’s, it’s amazing. So again, more stories.

JoAnn Crohn (08:22.72)

Slightly.

Sarah Hoover (08:41.063)

Thank you. I will say like you called me interesting and that’s really nice. But I think every single person on this planet has their own interesting story. It’s about figuring out how to tell it. Like you guys have your art, which is your podcast. Mine is writing, like telling your own truth is the most freeing and interesting thing anyone can do. And you just have to like figure out which way you’re going to do that, which what works for you, you know? So like, I don’t know if I’m a good writer, but I know that I wrote something that is me.

JoAnn Crohn (08:50.474)

Absolutely.

Brie Tucker (08:52.123)

Yeah.

Sarah Hoover (09:11.341)

And like, I hope that people can connect with that. It’s specific, but I hope that that helps people connect to my story, you know?

JoAnn Crohn (09:17.932)

Yes. And like going back to this, the part where you met your now husband and has been your husband for a long time. Like the, you had been on so many bad dates in New York city and you had expected like this first date with your husband at Balthazar, which was so funny because I was just in New York city and like somebody was talking about Balthazar. And then I read it in your book and I’m like, coincidence. But like the time that you were at the restaurant with him and

Sarah Hoover (09:22.645)

yeah, okay.

JoAnn Crohn (09:47.314)

He didn’t have his credit card, was it? Yes. Tell us this story and how you expected it to end and then what actually happened at the end.

Sarah Hoover (09:50.483)

he forgot his wallet. Sir, on a first date?

Sarah Hoover (09:58.343)

Okay, so like, I could not have afforded to go to a restaurant like Balfat’s are on my own. Like I had been there when my parents visited New York and it’s really a special restaurant and it’s been in Soho, which is the neighborhood where I lived since the 90s and it’s beautiful inside and you feel like you’re in France, right? So it’s like a treat to go there. And I was so excited. I was like going with this person that I really admired and thought was so cool. And we walk in and of course he like,

knows the hostess and they escort us to like the perfect table and I’m like, my god, like, am I important? And then, and I’m like, you order like, I don’t know what to get. And he like gets us steaks and all this stuff, and all this expensive stuff. And then he’s like, actually, I forgot my wallet. And I

Brie Tucker (10:48.125)

Was that before or after you guys ordered? I’m just curious when that forgot part comes in.

Sarah Hoover (10:51.111)

way it was when the bill came. It was like way after we ordered like we were like we like shut the place down like we were talking and talking and like ordering more drinks and like having one of those first dates where you’re like everything else disappears and it’s just the two of you and you’re like my god like is this guy the one like either he’s gonna ghost me and it’s gonna be horrible or like we’re getting married and having two kids okay worked out okay in the end but but I was like you did what like

JoAnn Crohn (11:12.902)

check!

Sarah Hoover (11:17.107)

there’s no way that I could like my credit my debit card would have gotten declined. And also I was like, well, I guess he doesn’t really like care about this. I know it just seemed so unprepared to me. I was like, it was the equivalent of being late or something. Like I was like, this is maybe a red flag. And I sort of was like, is he trying to like, get me obviously, I didn’t think he was freeloading. But he was like my studio where I make my art is just a couple blocks away. Do you want to come there with me and I’ll get my credit card and we can come back and I was like, my god.

Brie Tucker (11:26.492)

Yeah.

Sarah Hoover (11:44.839)

He’s like every other gross guy in the city. trying to get me to go home with him.

JoAnn Crohn (11:48.726)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Hoover (11:50.567)

I was like, first of all, you didn’t have to ask twice. Like I was gonna, I probably would have done it anyway.

Brie Tucker (11:50.719)

I love this.

JoAnn Crohn (11:55.786)

Yeah.

Brie Tucker (11:57.239)

You’re like, it doesn’t need to be this elaborate. Pull out your credit card, we know you have it.

JoAnn Crohn (11:59.689)

Hahaha

Sarah Hoover (11:59.923)

Exactly. I was like, great strategy. Yeah. And he really didn’t. And I had like an emergency credit card in the back of my wallet for you know, if I had an emergency, like in the emergency room emergency, that what like my dad paid the bill and I was not I had never put anything on it. Like I had to like take the sticker off, you know. And I was like, I guess I’ll pay. And he

JoAnn Crohn (12:04.364)

I can’t. Yeah.

Sarah Hoover (12:26.725)

I don’t know how much I should tell because it’s in the book, but he made it up to me. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (12:30.656)

He did. It was such a good, a good little like, I don’t know, it was like, my gosh, he does really care. And he is like the one, it’s that kind of ending.

Brie Tucker (12:37.627)

know, this is a hard interview because it’s like there’s so much we want to talk about, but we can’t give away the whole book.

Sarah Hoover (12:37.756)

Yes.

JoAnn Crohn (12:45.268)

We can’t give away the whole book, but we do. We have to hear more of the story. like right after this, I want to get I want to hear about when you guys decided to have kids and like what your initial thoughts of motherhood were. So we’re going to get into that right after this. 

Now you’re married with your husband in your story timeline. And since this book is a memoir, I think it’s so good to tell people the progression about what they can expect in your book. So when did you guys first have these discussions about kids? And what did you expect it would be like?

Sarah Hoover (13:31.057)

Okay, I have to say, like, I wasn’t one of those girls who always wanted to be a mom. I never, I wasn’t like, God, I love kids. And I meet women like that, and I’m like, that’s so cool that you like genuinely, this is your passion. It was never my passion.

JoAnn Crohn (13:38.154)

Yeah,

Brie Tucker (13:46.555)

You’ve met, no, you’ve met the two of us as well. Both of us were like, not gonna have kids. Nope. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (13:51.08)

Mm-mm. Nope. I had to be convinced, actually, by my husband to have kids. So. Yeah.

Sarah Hoover (13:55.951)

I totally understand that. Like it just didn’t feel supernatural to me. I didn’t believe I had maternal instincts. Like it wasn’t, I loved, I’m one of three children. I love my siblings. I’m very close with my parents. I loved family, but you know, when you’re in your twenties, like your life seems so long. And I had no vision for myself as some mother with five kids or something like that. Like it just didn’t occur to me. So I was not really like,

running towards family life. But my husband is older than I am. And he was always like, having kids is the greatest creative act you could possibly do. And he’s an artist. I was like, yeah, was like speaking as an artist, but also by the way, speaking as a man, I was like, easy for you to say. Like, you know.

JoAnn Crohn (14:39.158)

Speaking as an artist, yes.

Brie Tucker (14:45.693)

Exactly, I’m like, first of all, here’s a statement that I’m going to give you that comes along with a hefty spoonful of guilt and self-loathing because he’s telling you it’s the greatest gift, but like you said, easy for you to say, you’re not the one carrying it. It’s not a singular event.

JoAnn Crohn (15:07.786)

Well, what’s hilarious is that men describe this life that they’ll come home from work and there’ll be like a few kids running around and like dinner will be there. I’m sorry. Who’s made that all happen? Who’s made it all happen?

Brie Tucker (15:16.453)

And they’ll say… Yeah, and the kids will toddle up to you and say, I love you daddy! No, that is, that does not just naturally happen.

Sarah Hoover (15:26.111)

No, and by the way, in my family growing up, my dad came home from work every night at seven, my mom had dinner ready, and I ran up to my dad and told him how much I loved him, and that was my life. But what he didn’t see, I’m sure, was the inner turmoil of a woman, my mother, who wanted to have her own identity and also wanted a family and was probably, I always think she probably had her own version of postpartum depression with her kids that she didn’t know how to articulate in the 80s and 90s that there weren’t words for Because I’m like, how do you do this otherwise? Like, how do you, I think, I always say postpartum depression is a rational response to a completely insane thing that we are asked to do. You grow a baby, you birth a baby, your entire life changes, and you watch your husband walk gracefully off back to his normal life like nothing ever changed. And you have all this added responsibility. I’m like, there is wonder and magic that comes with it, but it’s not as simple as to say it’s all wonder and magic. It’s not, it’s complex. you give up a lot and your identity that you built your whole life around gets ripped from you very, very quickly, right? I didn’t know any of that, but I didn’t think to myself, you have to be a mother. It’s the most important thing in the world. But then I got pregnant. Like just out of, you know, I wasn’t trying. just, got pregnant and it didn’t, it also wasn’t an option in my mind to not have the baby. Like I was maybe 30, I was married.

I had a job, he had a job, like, yeah, it seemed like the natural next step, but I definitely didn’t have some calling to be a mother. the transition to it was really, it rocked me. It really rocked me.

JoAnn Crohn (17:07.871)

Yeah. No, I could totally relate to that. It rocked me too. remember looking. My daughter’s now almost 16, 16 months a month. But I remember looking at her, and I’m like, OK, just 18 more years, just 18 more years, just 18 more years. And now that I’m there at almost the 18 years part, I’m like, I made it. But it’s not anything I even regret that, which is why when you say it’s such a rational response to something insane that we’re expected to do, I

I yes, it totally is. Yeah. Yeah.

Brie Tucker (17:39.165)

Yeah.

Thank you for giving the words that like I know I thought and had like no way to express, which is like, how am I the only person that feels like this? And I’m not.

Sarah Hoover (17:52.459)

It’s so lonely. Doesn’t it feel so lonely? That’s, that’s like why I wrote this book basically, because I had never written anything. I don’t know if I’m a good writer, but I knew that if I felt that lonely, then there are other women who felt lonely too. And I was like, I have to write this. have to, if there’s one person on this planet who feels less lonely because of it, it will be worth it. And it like came out of me, like I was puking because it just felt so necessary and urgent that people feel less lonely. That transition is, it makes you just,

Brie Tucker (17:55.281)

Yeah!

JoAnn Crohn (17:55.402)

It feels so lovely.

Sarah Hoover (18:22.331)

you’re just by yourself in it. You’re just alone in it. And I think like you have old enough kids that I see on the internet now, Chrissy Teigen and you know, Amy Schumer and whoever that are really talking about motherhood, but like even eight years ago, five years ago, the conversation was so different, you know? And so what you guys are doing is obviously like, you know, you’re really, you’re cultural leaders in this space, but I can imagine when you were really, you know, when you’re, when your kids were young.

JoAnn Crohn (18:26.092)

Yeah.

Brie Tucker (18:38.545)

Nope, nobody talk, yeah.

Sarah Hoover (18:52.409)

You are, it’s so important. I mean, this is like, is how women, this is how you get rid of a glass ceiling. You talk about all of the ins and outs of what it means for women to have these different parts of their lives. I mean, I don’t think that men are emotionally capable of feeling what we feel and doing what we do every day. So like, thank God that we’re having babies, but.

JoAnn Crohn (19:15.446)

think they are emotionally capable. But like, we have had that put on us for our entire lives, that emotional labor, like just being raised as a girl, we were told to talk it out with our friends, we were told to share our feelings. Men were not, they are not trained as well as we are in the fields of like emotional labor, like we take it all on, we’re conditioned for it. Yeah. And it’s

Brie Tucker (19:40.763)

Yes, conditioned. Yeah. And also we’re not.

JoAnn Crohn (19:44.649)

It’s a hard thing to explain to a guy too that like, this is what it feels like to take all this on.

Brie Tucker (19:50.333)

think that’s true and I think there’s also the piece too that we’re not given any grace with it. Like as women, like this is like an expectation that we do this. Okay, I’m sorry. Let me say this in a very…

If a mom were to leave her role as a parent, like leave her family, how would she be judged versus a dad that decided to leave his family? Like I think that in most cases, a woman is judged much more harshly for not right for saying, no, I’m not taking on this role. I’m not saying that, you we don’t see both as like, you know, kind of the wrong choice in quotations, but

Sarah Hoover (20:25.943)

Of course.

Brie Tucker (20:36.347)

Women, you get no slack on it. There’s no slack. You do this job and you do it well, or you suck.

Sarah Hoover (20:42.159)

Well, I think there is the expectation that to be a good woman, to be good at being a woman, you naturally love motherhood. And if you don’t love every aspect of it, you’re bad at woman. You are bad at being a woman. And I deny that. I think that everything is complicated, motherhood included. you don’t, there’s no, I don’t think this expectation of perfection is fair. It’s like, it is part of this glass ceiling that denies us real equality. Like, you’re allowed to have complicated feelings about something. Just because you have a uterus doesn’t mean that you have to do this or that you’re bad if it’s not totally easy for you. And you’re allowed to have complicated feelings about it.

JoAnn Crohn (21:27.5)

Absolutely. And we need to talk more about those complicated feelings as well. So right after this, Sarah, I want to get into how you finally realized that something was wrong, that you had these feelings. And we’ll be back right after this. 

So Sarah, you had all these complicated feelings about motherhood, as both I had, as both Bri had. mean, I’m there looking at my kid being like, there’s only 18 more years of this. I could do this this way.

When did you realize that these feelings you were having, weren’t necessarily like helping you out or they were something different than what other people were experiencing with kids?

Sarah Hoover (22:10.365)

That was really hard because I kept saying to myself, on the one hand, everyone tells you motherhood’s hard, right? So I kept saying, well, maybe this is what they meant. Maybe when they said it was hard, they just meant that you feel this way and maybe the rest of my life is feeling this way. And I couldn’t reconcile that because I was like, that’s not fair. I have to feel like this forever. And all I did was try and perpetuate our species and be a good woman. What have I done to deserve this?

Brie Tucker (22:21.03)

Right?

JoAnn Crohn (22:34.644)

Yeah.

Sarah Hoover (22:38.91)

So there was that, but also when my baby came out, I expected to love him so madly. I expected they would put him on my body and it would be this instantaneous thing that would click in my brain and I would adore him and want nothing more than to mother him. And when they put him on my body, I felt nothing. I did not feel love. I did not feel recognition or spark of joy. And I hated myself for that. I thought, you absolute failure.

And I didn’t question it because I just thought that I was bad at being a mom. But then the months went by and it didn’t get better. And I felt totally shut down. And I remember I sitting, you I went on a roller coaster ride as you read in my book, an emotional roller coaster, but at maybe 11, 12 months after my son was born, I remember sitting at my kitchen table, looking out the window and I live like, you know, on the fourth floor of a building or whatever. thinking, what if I just walked off the ledge? And I thought to myself,

Thank God I got this. That’s not normal. That’s not a normal way to think. I don’t know if it’s post-traumatic depression, I have no idea what this is, but that’s not normal and you have to call somebody. And I like the next day called the therapist and was like, I couldn’t come totally clean. I wasn’t ready yet. I was too ashamed, but I was like, something’s not right. It was about all I could say. And it was only once I could talk to like a professional that I started feeling like there was maybe a way out.

of this and now like I had another baby. I found total happiness in, I found delight in motherhood and I never thought I would, but I had to like get to a place myself where I was like, whoa, something is really wrong.

JoAnn Crohn (24:20.042)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, what you described right there, like I’ve had those thoughts and it would took a therapist to actually name those thoughts for me because it’s suicidal ideation. And it’s not a normal thought and it’s thoughts that could be taken away with treatment as well, which also I didn’t realize during my like depression and anxiety. So like, I’m glad that you found help with that.

And just to know that I was right there with you too. I thought that something was wrong with me or I didn’t think something was wrong enough with me, you know, to get help.

Sarah Hoover (24:53.48)

Totally.

Brie Tucker (24:54.589)

Like you weren’t bad enough to be worthy of help.

JoAnn Crohn (24:59.51)

Well, no, it’s like the bad feelings, like, because when I had these thoughts, it was like, what if my car just crashes and it’s like all over? Like, it wasn’t making a plan or anything like that. And so you’re like, I’m not bad, not realizing that that is this like kind of warning sign that you really need to go get some help.

Sarah Hoover (24:59.718)

Yeah! And when you look back at that time, are you like, poor me, I can’t believe I felt so down. In the moment, you’re like, it’s okay, I’m still okay. But yeah, when you think back, you’re like, how did I do it? For months, feeling that aloneness in myself, like, I would think to myself, I would go to a party, or I would go out for a drink with a girlfriend, and I would have fun. So I would say to myself, well, you can’t be depressed, you had fun last night. You went on a date with your husband and you enjoyed yourself, so therefore you can’t be depressed. But the lows were just so low.

JoAnn Crohn (25:26.505)

yeah, I’m like near tears right now. Yeah.

Sarah Hoover (25:49.95)

It’s not that there were no highs. I got out of bed every day. I took care of my kid. did, you know, I had a job, but the lows were unbearably low and I would like fixate on death. could not stop thinking about losing my mother or losing someone important to me. And I would just like cry in the shower endlessly because of it. And of course I think about those things all the time and I feel, you know, they make me sad, it was sadness. couldn’t get over on my own. I would cry for three straight hours. Like,

JoAnn Crohn (26:16.15)

Yeah. It’s the overwhelming feeling of it all. That’s the…

Brie Tucker (26:20.317)

Okay, feel like I have to like, cause yeah, mine was, my first one was a eventful pregnancy. I had placenta previa, so I was hospitalized for a lot of it. But my point is like when, yeah, well, just, so nothing went to plans. Well, I was already coming in, cause remember, don’t move my cheese brie. I don’t like when plans don’t go the way they’re supposed to. But then he was in the NICU and then when he got home, which wasn’t a long NICU stay.

Sarah Hoover (26:30.997)

Whoa.

Brie Tucker (26:46.831)

I remember just laying in bed next to him and next to my son and trying to breastfeed him was such a struggle and just not wanting to get up. And I remember this probably happened for like a day or two. And on the second day, my then husband came in and his parents were visiting us and he just leaned down and he’s like, if you don’t get up, I’m going to take him and I’m going to go send him off with my parents. And then I’m calling the doctor.

And he thought that was motivation to get me up. And it did, it got me up. And then I just never said another word the rest of the time. I was just like, okay, I just have to get through this. But yeah, right? And so him saying that to me made me go, God, maybe I am making this a bigger deal than it should be.

Sarah Hoover (27:31.37)

God forbid I meet this man in a bar sometime.

Brie Tucker (27:46.621)

Maybe I just need to put on my big girl panties, which are literally big girl panties, because I had a C-section, so I had my diapers. I know, right? So it’s like, do I just need to put on a brave face? Because you tell yourself, like you just said, we all said the same thing in our heads at some point. Well, we’re not that bad. I can get up. It’ll be OK.

JoAnn Crohn (27:53.388)

Literally big patties. Yes.

Sarah Hoover (28:09.92)

I mean, I am mad at your husband for how he spoke to you. I’m mad at him, your ex-husband. I’m mad at, but, I’m sure there’s a list. Believe me, I’m sure.

Brie Tucker (28:13.533)

But don’t worry, we have lots of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (28:14.671)

I am mad perpetually at that man. But, but Bree just got a win, so we have to, we have to check that off, so yes.

Sarah Hoover (28:24.116)

But I will say, I don’t mean to absolve him or any man of anything, but in a way, it’s not totally their fault because we don’t complain enough. They don’t know what it’s really like. They don’t understand because for so long, women have been so good at being polite and following all those cultural conditioning that we were talking about. And we don’t say, this sucks, please help. And so I think there, I’m sure he thought he was doing the right thing or whatever, or maybe he’s a horrible ass jerk and excuse me, jerk, and wasn’t saying there, didn’t think he was doing the right thing. But in any case, all I’m trying to say is like, this is again, why the work that you’re doing is so important. Like we have to talk about this stuff. If most of the people in the world making decisions like about our bodies and you know, most politicians are men, they have to know the reality of what we’re going through in order to help us.

Brie Tucker (29:04.881)

We need to speak up, yeah.

Sarah Hoover (29:19.136)

with policies that are beneficial towards mothers and women. And they have to be able to have access to real life stories so that they can really deeply understand what it’s like to go through this incredible journey that allows the human species to be on our planet. But like, it’s complicated. I don’t know. I mean, I think that tough love doesn’t work. you needed a hug. You probably needed to like talk through stuff with someone and feel heard and tell your birth story and like.

JoAnn Crohn (29:35.028)

Mm-hmm. Exactly. It.

Brie Tucker (29:40.839)

Right? We didn’t know.

JoAnn Crohn (29:47.83)

Well, it’s interesting because I was listening to another podcast, Armshare Expert, which I love, and they were interviewing Cynthia Revivo. And her mother is kind of like a postpartum doula. And this is something that happens all the time in Britain and England, like other countries, where a woman comes into the house who is trained on how to care for newborns, how to care for the mother especially.

Could you imagine if after like your first child was born, you just had another woman there who was caring for you and helping you care for the newborn as well instead of like putting pressure on you, just like making sure you’re okay, making sure you’re mentally okay. my gosh, what a life changer that would be.

Sarah Hoover (30:39.08)

Yeah. I would, I would pay more taxes if everyone could have that. That would just be like, imagine someone if even just the act of someone being like, how was your birth? Are you okay? Do you want to talk about it? Like was your C-section scary? I’d love to hear about it. And I’d love to like, if you have questions about the baby, I’d love to be, because weren’t you so scared when you got the baby home from the hospital?

JoAnn Crohn (30:43.23)

I pay for it. Totally.

Brie Tucker (30:59.805)

It’s like dying. Because nobody told me about the whole uterus contracting crap. Because remember I didn’t go to any classes because I was in a hospital the whole time. I thought I was dying.

JoAnn Crohn (31:00.27)

yeah.

I couldn’t sleep. I was a f-

No, I couldn’t sleep. I thought like my baby would die or stop breathing.

Sarah Hoover (31:14.056)

It feels like you’re dying. No, and you’re adrenalized and you’re confused. Of course. mean, the fear level, it’s just, it is so much mentally and physically as a whole other story. And it’s not easy for anyone. I don’t care how easy your birth is. don’t care if you have a baby that sleeps through the nights on day one. It’s still this massive adjustment and you like need your, you need a community or at least one person to talk you through it. Otherwise, I think it’s very natural to be depressed.

JoAnn Crohn (31:42.016)

Yeah, I think it’s natural too.

Sarah Hoover (31:42.376)

I wasn’t depressed because I was flawed. I was depressed because I felt things that I think were very valid.

Brie Tucker (31:49.425)

Yeah, 100%.

JoAnn Crohn (31:50.984)

What advice do you have for people who think that they might be experiencing postpartum depression?

Sarah Hoover (31:57.12)

Yeah, this is so important. I mean, I think if you suspect that something isn’t quite right, then it probably really isn’t. It’s probably you’re going to look back, just like the three of us have done, and say, wow, it was 10 times worse than I thought. But you kind of only see that in retrospect. So if you have even a little suspicion, like it’s easy to say, you know, get a therapist. I know that’s not an option for everyone, but you have to tell someone and you have to make the decision. I’m not going to be embarrassed by this. I’m not going to feel like I’m bad.

Sarah Hoover (32:25.894)

I’m just going to be honest because it should look motherhood’s hard, but you shouldn’t be miserable. You shouldn’t be unable to claw your way out of sadness. And if you feel even a smidgen of that, you got to ask for help. And also you are allowed to complain, complain all you want. I think it’s a really, I think it’s helpful. Okay. I’m no doctor, but I think that there’s something really valid about it because it helps you put words to how you’re feeling and sort of

JoAnn Crohn (32:34.357)

Absolutely.

Sarah Hoover (32:55.712)

Practice explaining how you’re feeling and then when you have a real opportunity to get help or you’re in front of a therapist or whatever You can like articulate what’s wrong. It took me so long to even know the words to explain what was wrong I was just stuck in this like, you know kind of prison of my own feelings and I couldn’t even articulate it to someone and that makes you feel alone too And then it’s like this horrible snowball

JoAnn Crohn (33:18.718)

It is. It’s horrible. Like I love that thing about complaining because I see like so much stuff on social media about like, I never complain. I’m always happy about everything around me. look at my beautiful family. And I’m like, F you. Hashtag blessed.

Brie Tucker (33:31.517)

I’m so grateful. Hashtag blessed. that, ugh. Hashtag blessed is a big spoonful of bull crap, but go on, yes.

Sarah Hoover (33:33.984)

Right? You guys, if I…

Agreed. I was just gonna say, if I couldn’t complain, I don’t think I would have a personality at all. It’s like, it’s all I made up of.

Brie Tucker (33:52.687)

Venting is a very important skill to, both to be able to vent and to be able to accept the vent-er as well.

JoAnn Crohn (33:56.15)

Fenting, yeah, it is.

Sarah Hoover (33:56.768)

and agree more.yeah, yeah. I’m always down though. Yes, go ahead.

JoAnn Crohn (34:03.648)

Yeah. So Sarah, what do you have coming up for you? That’s exciting right now.

Sarah Hoover (34:09.572)

Okay, well, like today, the day of my book coming out starts my book tour, which I’m so excited about because like I’ve been working on this thing for a couple of years, right? It takes a long time to write a book and publish a book and to have it out in the world and to like engage with people who have can relate to the experience or have their own version of the experience is going to be magic for me. I cannot wait to talk to women all around America to the different cities in the different cities that I’m going to and like, hear their versions of the story. And I just, think it will make me feel less alone. It feels really healing in a way. You know, and like it’s, feel like everyone’s going to do me this great service of telling me their stories too. And I just can’t wait to connect with people about it. So I’m, you know, starting on my tour and I’m going to a bunch of different places and I’m like, so literally honored to meet people who are willing to talk to me about the subject matters. Truly like the light of my life right now.

Brie Tucker (34:45.725)

Yeah!

JoAnn Crohn (34:45.898)

Yeah.

That is exciting. Are you coming out to Arizona? Do know if you’re coming to Arizona?

Sarah Hoover (35:07.639)

Not yet, but if your local bookstore wants me, I’ll be there.

JoAnn Crohn (35:11.51)

we have a local bookstore here that does all the author things. Yeah, Changing Hands. Changing Hands is the big one. 

Brie Tucker (35:11.665)

we will talk to changing hands. Yeah, yeah, we’ll call changing hands. We’ll let them know.

Sarah Hoover (35:17.213)

fabulous. my gosh. Let them know that my hair does really well in dry heat and I would…

JoAnn Crohn (35:24.51)

Yeah, as does ours as does ours. Yeah.

Brie Tucker (35:27.515)

she’s already prepared for this. Like they need to have a changing hands in like Scottsdale though for you. That would be the best. Like so that she could stay in Scottsdale. It is, yeah.

Sarah Hoover (35:30.329)

Pfft!

JoAnn Crohn (35:35.071)

But they have the downtown Phoenix with the bar that they that’s the best changing hands. That’s the best one. Yes, it was. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your story and go out and get Sarah’s book, The Motherlode. It is out today. And Sarah will talk to you soon.

Sarah Hoover (35:40.441)

Say no more. A bar and a bookstore?

Brie Tucker (35:42.022)

right?

Sarah Hoover (35:58.821)

Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun. You guys are the best.

JoAnn Crohn (36:01.029)

So from this episode, Brie, Sarah talked a lot about complaining and venting. And that is something like I still have to really push myself to do because that voice in my head is telling me, my gosh, like no one will like you if you complain. Everybody will like leave you or think you’re like negative or whatever because that’s what I’ve been conditioned to believe.

And I love how she describes complaining. Like you’re allowed to complain. You’re allowed to tell your story. You’re allowed to say it’s hard because we don’t give ourselves that permission enough, I feel.

Brie Tucker (36:36.964)

Right, and I do think that if there is one thing that we talk about a lot here at No Gut Mom is the importance of having a community. And you can’t find that community if you’re not honest about where you’re at. Because whatever community you find, it’s not going to be the right fit, right? Because if you go to those, right after you have your kids, you go to the mommy and me class and everybody’s happy, go lucky, and you’re like.

JoAnn Crohn (36:51.826)

Exactly.

Brie Tucker (37:04.778)

No, I’m sucking at this. Like you have to be able to be honest and open and then trust me, those people that are like this, smiley and happy-go-lucky, they’re gonna be like, girl, yeah, yeah, I feel that too.

JoAnn Crohn (37:17.015)

yeah, they all, all always like that because like one thing, so I don’t like to complain, but I also, cannot not be honest. Like it is a huge part of my integrity. I cannot like keep it in. I can’t be fake. I have to say something as you know, and I’m a horrible liar. Yes. So like I go to like these like,

Brie Tucker (37:26.275)

Right. You’re horrible liar. And it’s a good thing. It’s a good thing.

JoAnn Crohn (37:40.811)

parent breakfasts, like mom meetups, like after the first day of school. And I’m the one who brings the conversation from like, was so great weather. Tommy did this to Hey, guys, what do we think about reproductive rights and the ballot? Like, like, like, I turn it immediately serious, because I can’t stay in that surface level conversation. I hate the small talk. my god, it drives me insane. But it

Brie Tucker (38:00.43)

Do the small talk. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (38:08.035)

It’s, I love Sarah’s interview because I always feel bad for bringing the mood down, quote unquote, bring the mood down. But really what I’m doing is like, I’m giving a voice to other people because from that one breakfast, I felt like no one agreed with me, you know, cause I was doing, I was saying something for chamber for mothers and I was passing out the voting cards everywhere and I’m like, here you go. I felt no one agreed with me and they were like, silly Joanne. look at her. But.

I just got a message the other week from one of the moms who was there and be like, hey, like I’m feeling really down and I want to know if you want to meet up for breakfast, you know, based on the things like you were saying at the breakfast, months ago, she remembered it and she knew I was someone that she could come to and reminds me I need to reach out to her again, because I was traveling when she sent that and I said I’d get back to her, but that’s besides the point. I’m just saying complaining works.

Brie Tucker (39:03.704)

Yeah. No, I mean, it is, it is a complaining works. Like when you realize that, because like I, her story is so powerful. I did try to write a book after I had my first kiddo. Like I have a very, very small half of one chapter written before I let it go. But I think it was, it was the same motivation as Sarah. Like I had a weird pregnancy. And by weird, I just mean like it wasn’t your average pregnancy. I had things that I didn’t know how to talk to people about. I was hospitalized for most of it, so I didn’t have anybody talk to about it. My point being is I read her book and I could not put it down because I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt like I found, my God, there are other people that feel the way that I did. Like I didn’t have to match her every experience and her every emotion to feel like she’s my people. And I wanna say that to anybody, like, you gotta get Sarah’s book, the mother load. It is so, so good.

JoAnn Crohn (40:25.699)

Yes, we have a link for you right down there. And remember, the best mom’s a happy mom. Take care of you, and we’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker (40:36.472)

Thanks for stopping by.