Podcast Episode 333: Ditching Reward Charts for Real Change Transcripts
Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.
Hey everyone, it is JoAnn here. Doing a little twist today. Today I’m sharing my own interview from the What Fresh Hell podcast. And What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Margaret Abels and Amy Wilson, who actually has a book releasing this month that I’m super excited about. And Amy’s book is called Happy to Help.
Happy to Help is a collection of super funny and touching essays about how you can be the one everyone else depends on and still be struggling. Does that sound familiar? Because I have to say, like, it hit home for me. Amy’s writing is hilarious and relatable. I so enjoyed reading this book. And if you’re the one who does it all and then some, you’re going to feel so seen.
Two of my favorite authors have also reviewed this book. Gretchen Rubin, heard of her? Yeah, love her. She said she couldn’t put Happy to Help down. And Jennifer Wallace, who we also interviewed here on the podcast, she called the book a gift to women everywhere. And if this sounds up your alley, go get Amy Wilson’s book, Happy to Help. It’s available wherever you buy books, or we also have a link for it in our show notes. And now enjoy this What Fresh Hell episode, this interview that I did with Amy on her podcast.
INTRO
Hey everybody. Welcome to Fresh Takes from What Fresh Hell, laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Amy. And today I’m talking to JoAnn Crohn. She’s a parenting educator who helps moms feel confident in everything from raising empowered, self-sufficient kids to dropping the anxiety and guilt out of modern parenthood.
She is the host of the No Guilt Mom podcast. She’s a writer and a speaker. No Guilt Mom also offers self-paced digital courses in things like handling big emotions, getting kids to help out more, creating a morning routine, and conquering the homework drama. I hope we’ll talk about some of that today. JoAnn is also a national board certified teacher in middle childhood education, and she’s a mom to two kids ages 13 and eight. Welcome, JoAnn. Thank you so much for having me. I am super excited.
We’ve met in real life, but now we’re meeting at the microphone. Yes. Yes, indeed. And you guys were on our podcast too, the Know We Got Mom podcast. So it’s fun to like switch sides. It’s fun to have you on. So you used to be a fifth grade teacher. I used to be a fifth grade teacher. Like it seems so many moons ago, but I… How many moons ago was it? Just so we know. I stopped teaching when my son was born. So my son, actually just turned nine a few weeks ago.
So nine years now that I’ve been out of the classroom, but I’ve been working with now parents to help them raise their kids to be more self-sufficient using things that I used in the classroom, using mistakes that I made in the classroom and trying to fix those mistakes now based on what I’ve learned since then. So all of that experience informs now what I do in my business with the coaching and the helping parents and the now creating courses for kids and parents.
So interesting. Okay. So let’s dive into this. So you would think like teacher parent is sort of cut paste, right? Just you already know how to handle kids who don’t want to do what you want them to do. It’s perfect. But for you, it was not quite so simple. No, because like as a teacher, it is so much easier to control 32 and I use that word loosely control, but 32 kids in a classroom are easier to keep on task than your own child doing homework at the kitchen table.
Because with the kids in your classroom, you’re not emotionally invested in them. You definitely care for them. You love them. But when it’s your own child and they’re there with you 24 seven, they know your buttons. You like are putting so much of your own worth on that child. It becomes really, really hard to separate exactly your own emotions from like what they’re doing and teaching. It’s much easier.
It’s helpful to hear because I mean, think teachers are, you know, demigods, but it’s good to hear like it isn’t just because they’re great at it and we’re terrible. There is actually something a little bit more complicated about one kid than a group of kids. It’s for sure. Like I would give me a group of kids anytime versus like my own child. I can get that group of kids to do anything. Like my own child, they’re like, But you say that some of the behavioral management strategies that teachers are have been taught and some are still being taught are actually either ineffective or kind of effective but have other problems. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So as a teacher, like they make you take one class in classroom management in your teacher education. And I’m not sure that’s may have changed since I was in school, but in classroom management, it talks about how to control and manage behavior in the classroom. And a lot of techniques are really reward based. So it’s, you do a great thing. You get a classroom point.
or let me give you a sticker on a behavior chart. Or I use something called class dojo in my classroom where I could go around with my phone and I’d be like, my gosh, you’re working hard. Point for you, point for you, point for you. And like kids could keep track of it that way. And then there’s also the opposite side of the reward base, which is kind of the stick, the punishment, the consequence where things like we had this thing called think time in our classroom and it was a school wide thing.
And it was basically modified timeout. It was, okay, you’re doing this in the classroom. I’ve asked you about it before. Say it’s something like talking with your neighbor while you’re supposed to be working. Usually really little behaviors like that. And me as a teacher, couldn’t like students weren’t responding to just me reminding them. So it would be like, okay, well you need to now go and quote unquote, think about your behavior in another classroom, write it down, write what you do differently.
and then come back and we’ll chat about it. And the idea behind it is actually really like, it’s based in really great things. It’s based on, know, reflection and looking at your behavior and trying to change your behavior. And like not blame me, like you’re not in trouble. You’re just going to go think about it for a little while. Exactly. You’re going to go think. You’re going to go think. That was the intention. But what happened was the same exact kids would go to think time every single day.
And the sheets they brought back to the classroom, they weren’t like deep reflections. It was like, what was my behavior? I was talking. What am I going to do? Not talk. And did they not talk? No, they didn’t because it never really addressed like what exactly they were struggling with in the classroom. It looked at the surface thing of the talking, but it didn’t look under the surface. It didn’t look to see, okay, are they struggling in this concept?
Or do they maybe need like a little more movement in their body? Or are there senses like telling them that they need like other stimulation and they cannot sit down in a desk for that long? It didn’t look at any of that. And so I didn’t see any change in my students. And at the time I didn’t know that there was another way. I just did what I was taught as a teacher. I did what my school was doing and we would come in the lunch room and be like, my goodness.
this student, what are we going to do with him? we sent him to think time and there was never a way out of it. Tell us about clipping down because this was something I hadn’t heard about before I read about it in your work and it’s sort of more extreme version of the same thing. So this is something I can’t like looking back, I want to apologize to all of my students who I had clipped down in my classroom because it was based in shame. I mean it was, it was based in shame.
It was a chart we had in the back of the room. Every student had a clothes pin on that chart. And every time they had a behavior, like they would start in green for the day. And if they talked out loud, if they like forgot a homework assignment, if they like disrupted the class, we would ask them to clip down. So like take their clothes pin, clip down to the lower level. They would clip themselves down, like you have to walk back there. You have to walk back there. You have to clip down.
Walk of shame, clip down. was, and it was the walk of shame. And here I thought, my gosh, I’m like giving kids feedback about their behavior. I’m keeping them accountable to their classmates. Like this is a really good thing. But again, there was no change long-term in anybody’s behavior from clipping down. I mean, we would have the like kids who were able to be really self-regulated in the classroom, able to follow like other rules, a lot of
I mean, I look at it now and I’m like, my gosh, these poor kids who are like high achievers and people pleasers, like they were the ones who were not clipping down. a lot of girls, might imagine just to generalize, right? Girls are easier. It was. It’s easier for girls to sit nicely and not talk. And I mean, looking back, it was a lot of girls. And when like a student would clip down, like one of those high achievers, one of the ones it would crush them.
Like it would crush their souls. I would never have gotten over it if Ms. Crohn told me to clip down. I’d be like, hey, no, no. I wouldn’t either. And then other kids, as you’re saying, like clip down every day and like, here I go. Oh, well, I made it to 1115 today. I must be doing something right. And that’s exactly what happened. Like the other ones were like, well, normal day. I’ll just clip it. And it didn’t make a single difference. And long-term, I can see now that that process, like it just showed kids that
You know, this is the way I am. just clip down every day and there’s no way out of it. Or like, here I am a good kid and this is how I’m judging how good I am. But if a teacher doesn’t tell me to clip down, then it’s a great day. I had a kid, one of my kids was the type that would have been sent out for think time and they called it think time. So this child would say like, I was in the hallway again. And I’d say, what did you do?
And this kid would be like, yeah, I don’t know. And even the teacher would be like, sometimes I just can’t take your kid out in the hallway for a couple of minutes. And it was almost like, it wasn’t even something that this kid felt bad about anymore. It was just how it went, right? And yet if this kid could have done things differently, this kid would have. That’s what I sort of saw from the outside looking in. I wasn’t necessarily mad at this teacher. The teacher is 30 kids. If one kid is too much, one kid is too much. But on the other hand, yeah, like.
my kid was just sort of accepting this is who I am. I won’t be able to make it through class without being sent to the hallway. Exactly. And like what kind of message are we giving our kids there where they’re now going out in the hallway, they’re missing out on learning time and they’re not knowing what’s wrong. Like they think it’s something with them. They think that they’re incapable of being in the classroom. They think they’re incapable of participating. So it’s just not, it’s not ideal. It’s not optimal. And
Again, like I wish I could go back to my teaching and do things completely differently in the terms of how I try to manage behavior and how I taught kids. And it seems to me some of the work that you do with moms too is about we take on strategies. Sometimes these strategies sounds like clipping down sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t. And if you end up trying some of these strategies at home and they don’t work, you think there’s something wrong with you as a parent or something wrong with your kid instead of is there something wrong with the strategy? yeah, exactly. And I have a friend who actually has a behavior chart in her home and I saw it there and I’m like, okay, we need to talk about this because she’d come to me and she’d be like, like my child is so naughty. She’s not listening to things. Like I tell her to clip down and we’ve had a morning today. my goodness. And sometimes it’s hard to like draw that line between like friend and like educator because sure.
One of those things where it’s not the clipping down, it’s not the child, it’s just that this strategy, we’re not teaching her anything. We’re teaching kids to be ashamed of their behavior when we do these reward based strategies or when we do this punishment strategies. And we don’t instead teach them how to regulate their body, regulate their emotions, talk about their needs, about what they may need in the moment, and try to figure out exactly why this behavior is occurring and how we can move forward from it versus just a shame induced clip down. I’m talking to JoAnn Crohn from No Guilt Mom. We’ll be right back.
So JoAnn, this brings me to this quote from Dr. Ross Green that I think about pretty much every day of my life. And I know you’re a big fan of his work, which is that kids do well if they can. That’s always the place where he starts. Kids do well if they can. If your kid has think time every day, then it’s not because they want to, it’s because they want to actually do well. So
Tell us about how you sort of found your way to his work and sort of other approaches. You’re right. I am a big, fan of Dr. Roskrain and we do a lot of our teaching based on him through No Guilt Mom. I want to do a shout out. We have an episode, an interview with Dr. Stacey Haynes, who is very trained in the CPS paradigm, collaborative and proactive solutions. I’m going to put a link in the show notes. If you’ve never heard of it before, you should definitely listen to that episode as well. But go ahead, JoAnn.
Yeah, it’s amazing. And I wish I would have found Dr. Ross Green’s work when I was a teacher because I started hearing a lot of talk about his book, The Explosive Child, and everywhere parents would be like the explosive child, the explosive child. I’m like, okay, I’m going to sit down and I’m going to read this book. And it was so enlightening to me as a parent and so enlightening to me as a former educator, because instead of like blaming our kids for their behavior or expecting their like not like
trying to go against us or trying to push back against us or that they’re like highly spirited and this is just what we’re dealing with. It digs into figuring out the reasons behind the behavior and really talking with kids and trying to figure out what they need and what they’re trying to get out of something. Because the biggest change that I saw when I started parenting in this way is that the problems I thought were the problems
They’re not the problems whatsoever. It’s not that my child is like tantruming. It’s not that my child doesn’t want to do the work. It’s not that they’re like specifically trying to like rile up their sister and start a fight. It’s usually something completely different. Like an example for homework. My son hates homework. Like he hates homework. And it’s like crying at the kitchen table hating of homework.
And so he was trying to do a math assignment and I heard all of the things I usually hear out of him. I can’t do this. This is too hard. And so we sat and once he calmed down, I went through the steps and we like to talk about it in a happy framework and no guilt mom. So we do have priorities first and our priorities are always to try to relate to our kids and have this really strong relationship with our kids.
And then we go into appreciate your kids concerns, which really follows Dr. Ross Green’s not work. And I asked him, I’m like, Hey, like you were doing really well with your homework assignment. And then you got to this problem. What’s up? And when I started asking questions about like, okay, well, what was different with this problem and this problem? Or I see you did like, okay, with spelling, but you’re having a hard time in math. What was that about? I was able to find that the reason he was melting down at homework.
was one vocabulary word on that worksheet that he didn’t understand, just one word. And he internalized that to be like, I can’t do this. I don’t know this. I should be like doing better. And once we found that one word that he was having trouble with, and it was like something like square roots versus root square, it’s like something about measurement, he was able to do the assignment. Whereas before I would have been like blaming myself for not knowing how to motivate him, blaming myself for not knowing how to calm him down. Now I saw, Oh, this is just like one little thing right here. And if we can work on that and like strategies for what do do when you don’t know a word that solves the problem long-term versus the shaming, like you don’t do your homework or you’re not motivated or focused. What I have learned from this CPS paradigm is, you ask the kids as JoAnn was saying, say, I don’t know, this is really getting to this homework. What’s up?
Right? Just that and not like, you think you need to take a break? Do you think you might need to, do you think you need to pay a little more attention? Like, do not. Just ask them what’s up and you’re not like, because you really want to know and you really want to know what they have to say. Like in the example of the kid who’s always getting kicked out of art class, they might hate clay and how it feels in their hands. The chairs in our class might be uncomfortable. It might be cold in there. They might be hungry by that time of day. And it’s things that you won’t have thought of.
You see what I’m saying? Like you’re not saying what’s up because that’s going to magically be the answer. It’s saying what’s up because then they will tell you why they’re not functioning at the level they want to be functioning at. And it will often really surprise you what the problem was all along. Right? Exactly. I don’t like the sound that the car makes when you put the turn signal on or something, you know, like just like what that? Yes, that that’s what it was. Yeah. We’ve been able to find out a lot of sensory issues with our own kids based on this line of questioning.
where I’ll ask like my daughter for instance doesn’t want to go on a car ride places. And before we’re like, my gosh, she just needs to get over this. Like what is going on? Right. She’s pushing my buttons. She’s doing this to get me. Yeah. Exactly. And just asking her what’s up and then also combining it with this knowledge of kids have all these sensory needs.
And some kids like see danger with their senses where other kids do not see the same danger. So with my daughter, we found that she really perceives movement very differently than we do. It’s the, I’m going to mess up the pronunciation and perceptive sense where it’s like your body in space, where if she feels jerkiness in a car, it like physically makes her nauseous. And so knowing that and informing her about that and saying like, Hey, this is what’s going on in your body. It’s okay. Like let’s work on strategies to calm down instead of you’re just pushing my buttons and you’re trying to get under my skin. It makes such the difference in parenting and it makes such the difference in the relationship that you have with your kids. can I ask, do you think there’s never like, I’m thinking about like potty training charts that I would use with my kids where they just got like,
a sticker for every poop and some &Ms and you know, and those seem to work pretty well. Do you think that there are times when those are, where charts and sort of positive reinforcement, physical manifestations like that are okay? And how do you know when they’re okay? So potty training is one in particular that reward charts work extremely well for. Like it is a very concrete defined thing. Like poop in the potty,
don’t poop in the potty. Right, right. It’s binary. There’s no judgment involved. It’s not like, like you weren’t a good kid today. It’s just like, it’s very concrete. Well, you were kind of quiet at church, but not quite enough. Right, right. You did or you didn’t. There’s no shame. And it’s really short term as well, because I mean, rewards do work when they’re short term.
But the thing when rewards don’t work is when we’re trying to develop that intrinsic motivation in kids to actually pursue things and persevere and be motivated. Potty training is one of those things that I think that’s the only exception to the reward chart rule.
My sister’s going through this right now with her three-year-old. I’m just like, I’m so glad I’m out of that stage. But there’s something about that stage two, three, pleasing mommy, right? And getting a sticker is like ticker tape parade sticker on the potty chart is kind of like same same, right? So that’s you are taking advantage of a window that’s unique in that time. Fifth grade, like I’m clipping down, like, okay, I guess I’m clipping down.
Yeah. And there’s also like the people pleasers though, who love the stickers and love the rewards. I mean, I just use one example. I was in Weight Watchers long ago and you go to a meeting and you’re supposed to share in a meeting. And if you share like a winner success, they give you a sticker and I would do anything for a sticker.
As like a 30 year old woman, I do it. So it really like depends like on the person and the motivation. Now in that sense, it wasn’t based anything on my behavior. It was based on something that I could explicitly control. I could control if I raised my hand and I shared. It was like one of those like check, did it. There’s no other judgment with it. And I think that really works because it was under my control. And it works for kids too when it’s under their control.
Like I say this with homework. mean, one of the ways that we did homework in our household with my daughter is she gave herself a reward. So she was trying to train herself to like focus on her homework and we brought out a timer and she’s like, okay, I’m going to pick the time. I’m going to pick the time. And she picked two minutes and she’s like, if I could do it for two minutes, I get a gummy bear and she’d do it for two minutes and she’d get a gummy bear. And she loved that because it,
boosted her autonomy, in control over the situation. And she got to pick the guidelines that were really within targets that she could meet. And so I think that’s where reward charts really work. When they’re under the control of the person doing the behavior versus being something that’s assigned to them or a judgment from someone else. That makes so much sense. Okay, we’ll be right back
We’re talking to JoAnn Crohn from No Guilt Mom. Okay, so we’re back with JoAnn Crohn of No Guilt Mom.
The shame free method is something that you teach in all your online courses and talk about on your podcast, right? There’s no shame, no guilt for the mom and ideally no shame and no guilt for the kids either, right? So let’s talk about, here’s a big one, getting kids to help out more around the house, right? Is something that we might apply charts, negative charts, you know, whatever to try to get kids to help out more. How can we approach this in a more shame free, yelling free way?
Yes. So I am a big fan of acronyms. will give an acronym to anything. okay. Me too. I love a brand. Let’s brand it. Yes. So like the shame free thing we use in our course, Calm and Happy Parenting is the happy method. Okay. And so it starts with H, which is have priorities. So first we need to know what we’re working for. One of our priorities is always to have that stronger relationship with our kids. That is like number one.
We want to have that relationship where our kids, when they grow up and move out of the house, that they still want to come back and like hang out with us and chat with us. And like, we want to be their advisor. And another thing is getting really clear on what you want to have happen. So say it’s all it’s homework. We tell people to focus on only one thing at a time, because if you’re trying to figure out every single little issue in your home,
And this also goes back to Dr. Ross Green’s work and his it’s called, I like forget now what it is, what he calls it, but it’s only one at a time. You want to focus on one thing at a time. So that’s the H, the HAP priorities. The second one is A, appreciate your kids’ concerns. So this is where we really try to figure out our kids’ viewpoint and try to figure out how our kids see the situation. This is where the question like, I noticed that this is happening. What’s up comes in.
This is where parents really like to skip over it because it goes completely counter to what, how we’ve been raised. Like we weren’t raised where kids really respected our, where like parents really respected our opinions and tried to get down to the bottom of why we were doing what we were doing. Right. Why we didn’t want to get in the car. Right. Right. Yeah. And so this part is really figuring out, okay, how does the kid see the situation and asking those questions? Like, like I noticed that this has happening. What’s up?
Or I noticed that you’re okay getting in the car to go to grandma’s, but you’re not okay getting in the car to go to school. How is this different? And when I drill down with my kids, I try to find everything out and I always ask them a question. I’m like, okay, so here’s what you’ve told me so far. A, B and C, is there anything else? And I always want to repeat to them to show them that I’m listening. And so, That’s the appreciate kids concerns. And then after we find out everything that’s going on with them, we then want to process our own concerns. We tell them exactly why we are concerned about the situation. So in regards to homework, it’s like, I’m concerned that you’re getting so upset during homework time. And I would love to find a way that, you know, you could do this calmly. So won’t cause you so much stress. And that part’s very short.
So it’s like a flip because usually we’re all like, you should be doing this, this, this, and this, and this. And we don’t let the kids talk, but in this method, it’s really letting the kids talk a lot. And we just give like a really short, here’s our concern. I see. After that, we move into the problem solving part where we problem solve together. That’s the second P and happy. And we ask our kids, okay, well, here’s what’s going on with you. Here’s what you’ve told me. Here’s my concern about the situation.
How can we solve this? What are some ideas? And we brainstorm with our kids. When it comes to chores, it’s always like, okay, I love the dishwasher situation. I don’t know if the dishwasher is ever a situation in your house, but there’s always drama. There’s always a dishwasher situation. There’s always a dishwasher situation. So my son, for instance, last week, he, we just moved the dishwashers right near this really bright window, the lights in his eyes. He’s not.
confident yet in our new dishwasher. He doesn’t like how things are organized in it. And so it’s always an issue. I go to him and I’m like, okay, so the light is in your eyes here. Plates are falling down when you stack them in the dishwasher. I’m concerned that we won’t have dishes for clean dishes for dinner. If this isn’t done, how can we solve this? And it’s up then to the child to start giving us some ideas. like you can help me load the dishwasher or
I can like do it really quickly right now and just get it over with. Like that’s always an idea in our house. And usually that’s the one my son takes or I need your help loading these dishes, but I’ll do the rest of the silverware, like anywhere the problem is. And so they gave this idea and we start, we start with one solution and sometimes our kids solution doesn’t work out at first. Like, have you ever had that where your kids are like, well, I think we should do it this way. And you’re like, I don’t think that’ll work. Right.
And you just want to skip the 15 minutes of doing the wrong way so you can get to your way. But that’s not what this method calls for. Exactly. And so we let them try it their way. We let them see exactly what may be the downfalls of it. Because I mean, I’m a kid who grew up in the school of hard knocks. Like you can’t tell me or give me advice on anything. I need to figure it out for myself and I need to experience it. And that’s what I feel like my kids are as well. And so they try it their way. When it comes to homework.
Like one thing that came up with my son is his idea to do homework was to do it in the morning instead of doing it at night when he came home. And I could see all of the problems with that. I’m like, my gosh, we have to get out the door in time. We’re not going to make it. Like you’re going to be stressed in the morning, but I let it go. I let him do it in the morning and it worked for him. And I was totally blown away that it worked for him. But the fact that it was his idea.
And he had control over it, gave him like this responsibility that me just telling him what to do wouldn’t have given him. It’s the perfect example, right? This method. like do your homework in the morning. What? And it was the solution, right? Or like he doesn’t want to load the dishwasher cause the sun is in his eyes in a weird angle. They’re just things that had you not done this sort of patient interrogation would not have come to light. Yeah.
And I would have been really mad the entire time if I would have thought like, he just doesn’t want to do it. He’s just being lazy. And it’s my job as a parent to make sure he has a work ethic and responsibility. Like those would have been the things going through my head and instead taking the time to ask him and figure out his reasoning behind it made all the difference. And so then after the problem solving, the why is yield the work, which is when we just give control over to our kids. What? Yeah, give the control.
And that could be the hardest thing sometimes. There is a great book out there and we interviewed her on our podcast. name is Vicki Hoefel. She writes a duct tape parenting and she talks about putting metaphorical duct tape on yourself, like duct tape over your mouth, duct tape yourself to the chair. Like do not get involved. Let the kids like control their own like tasks, control their own behavior and you just sit back and you watch.
And when you watch, you’re able to gather information that you wouldn’t have been able to before. And you’ll also see that sometimes kids, they just take longer to do the things like longer than we would expect it to be done. But then it’ll happen. Like my daughter, for instance, I cannot remind her to feed the dog in the morning or to unload the dishwasher. She will get extremely mad. Like when my alarm bells are going off and I’m like, my gosh, she’s like leaving out the door and I really need to tell her to do this. she’s going to forget that. Like that’s the thing I have to pull back because what I find is like 10 minutes after I have that thought, she’s here doing the dog dish, something that wouldn’t have happened. It would have started a huge fight if I would have just like, try to keep her quote unquote on top of things and going in the morning.
But yielding the work is having that trust in your kids that it’ll get done and watch what happens. And sort of the big takeaway from No Guilt Mom, I love this. You say that kids who learn to be self-sufficient are actually happier in the long run and therefore so are their parents. They are because they build their confidence. They know they can like tackle hard things and they know they can solve it because they’ve had this practice and the parents are also there instead of us trying to get all the things done.
We’re just there supporting them, empathizing with their stress and being that source of like support instead of against. And it’s a great thing. So great. So JoAnn, tell us all about No Guilt Mom, the podcast, the courses, everything that you offer. So No Guilt Mom, come on over, listen to our podcast. We have guests everywhere from child experts in development to trying to get your kids to do chores, being kinder to yourself as a mom, really recognizing your own emotions and feelings and how that impacts your parenting. Because something that I am very, very passionate about is I think that moms should be able to call themselves good parents and be self-fulfilled outside the home. A lot of the trends I see is like you have these really high achieving women who accomplish great things and then they’re like, but I’m a crappy parent. And I’m like, no, you’re not. Like there’s a way, there’s a way to be both.
And so that is what I try. like our mission at No Guilt Mom is, and we do this through our podcast. We do it through our Calm and Happy Parenting course and teaching parents that you don’t have to have all the balls in the air. You don’t have to be perfect on screen time or have like a good dinner on the table. All you have to be is connected with your kids and able to find out the reasons behind their behavior when a problem happens.
You can find us on Instagram at NoGuiltMom or at our website, NoGuiltMom.com. JoAnn, thank you so much. This was a very helpful episode even to me with big kids. So I really appreciate your talking to me today.
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a blast.
Brie Tucker
COO/ Podcast Producer at No Guilt Mom
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