Podcast Episode 350: How to Not Resent Your Partner (Even When You’re Drowning in Dishes and To-Do Lists) Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I am your host JoAnn Crohn joined here by the lovely Brie Tucker. hello. Hello. Hello. I was eating almonds before we started. And so I’m like here checking my teeth as the countdown’s going on and yeah.

and nutty And I’m eating my chocolate covered hunks cashews that I got from recent try of Thrive Market. They’re yummy. They are so

Yeah, that’s what got us on the nuts. It’s your fault, Brie. You got us on the nuts. we just followed that little like thread and pulled it as far as it would go.

Can you say squirrel?

Who? Squirrel. Well, we have such a fun episode for you today because we are bringing back Mary Katherine Starr. She is the artist behind the Instagram account at mom life underscore comics and a graphic designer, yoga teacher, feminist and mom of two. And she has a comic memoir called mama needs a minute, which is so funny and delightful, which just released today. Mary Katherine’s mama to two littles and

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:29.93)

is now a no guilt mom two timer. let’s get on with the show.

Intro Music

Speaker 1 (02:12.514)

Welcome back to the show Mary Katherine.

Thank for having me back. I’m so excited to be back with you all.

It’s gonna be a fun time and your new book, Mama Needs a Minute, is so funny and delightful and has all of the comics that I love just following you on Instagram with. Like the same thing, like I just love it. It was so fun to read and enjoy and so relatable.

my gosh. My big thing is that I feel like when I read your comics, you’re reaching into my head. And I’m on my second marriage. So I’m not quite with those years of conversation and being able to understand each other’s habits yet. So sometimes I just think those things, I don’t say those things, those things don’t actually happen yet. So I love it. I love that I’m like, okay, I’m going to get there. I’m going to get there.

Yeah, whether that’s a good or bad thing, but yes.

Speaker 3 (03:06.126)

It’s a good thing. It’s a good thing because yeah, yeah, it’s all about communication.

It is all about communication. And it’s so funny, like reading your book, it reminded me of an interview we did recently with Kathy Heller, who said that there was like four, she’s been through four marriages already, but it’s all been to the same person. And I saw like a very similar theme in your book too, how relationships evolve, especially when you bring kids into the picture. And you described your relationship with your husband as like this.

previous egalitarian partnership. And now you kind of work to rebalance these responsibilities. So I think like this whole episode, we’re going to give people this comfort that if they don’t feel like they’re in the same relationship with their partner or spouse as when they met their partner and spouse, that it’s okay. Things could be realigned and it is all going to be good. So let’s take it back to the beginning, Mary Katherine. Like when you

like, your husband first got together, what were some things that you prided yourself on doing equally?

Yeah, well, so we met in college. was very, I mean, you know, I was like a sophomore in college when we met. So we started out not even aware of any of that kind of stuff. But we first moved in together was, I don’t know, many years later. We had a long distance relationship for a long time. But when we first moved in together, we were very intentional about making everything equal. I mean, we did grocery shopping, both of us together. We did the dishes together every single night after we had dinner. And he made the food and I was his sous chef. I was in the chopping. He did all the cooking.

Speaker 2 (04:46.062)

Everything, you know, just everything together. did our laundry side by side. Like we each did our own laundry. We went down to our little apartment buildings, laundry room together. And it was just like, you know, we were, it was very equal. I probably did more of like the, you know, straightening up around the house, but we both cleaned it. And then he also did, you know, he did more of like the bill pay and stuff. So it, it really felt like, even though, yes, we did a lot together or there were certain things that each of us did, it just felt equal. I never felt like I was doing everything. And

So really didn’t even, it wasn’t even something I thought about. I obviously knew that in a lot of couples, there was a stereotypical heteronormative division of labor that was very old fashioned. But I thought, I didn’t think I would have to even prepare for that because it was never an issue before we had kids. So I think in writing this book, that’s one of the things I really wanted to make clear. Because I feel like with a lot of my comics and a lot of what people say to me on the internet is like, oh, if things are so horrible, why’d you marry him? Or why would you?

why would you pick to be in a relationship with a man like this? And it’s like, it wasn’t like this. know, I mean, obviously I wrote a whole book about it. There’s a lot of nuance here, but you know, I think, I think the fact that so many moms, and this is what I’ve learned doing my comics, is that so many moms feel this way. Things were equal and then they added kids to the mix and it’s not right away. It doesn’t happen overnight. Not like you have a baby and all of sudden you’re doing everything, but there’s a slow slide, I think.

for many reasons, you I talk about that in the book, but things like, you know, maternity and paternity leave or, you know, parental leave, length, um, like the quo of our society. I mean, and then obviously, you know, the physicality of it, the fact that a woman often breastfeeds or is at least working on that. And that’s another thing she’s doing that perhaps her husband can’t do or her male partner can’t do. I mean, there’s so many things at the beginning that start the slippery slope. And so what happened for us was that like, you know, we end up, we’re

two or three years in the parenthood and it’s like I look around and no wonder I’m losing my mind and drowning and angry all the time because yeah I was so many

Speaker 1 (06:45.582)

So many easy ways for it to slip because like I had the same kind of relationship dynamic you did. Like we did everything equally. I remember my husband was working late nights till 9 p.m. But I wouldn’t like cook dinner and have it waiting for him. We would go out. We would go out at 9 p.m. We would have dinner because like of course you have all this expendable income too when you’re like a couple. don’t have to take care of. I have to say like

My kids are now older, like 16 and 11, and I am looking forward actually to the empty nesting about like it all and getting that little dynamic back again. Because again, it’s rare for things to change. And it brings me back to like where you said these people on the internet were like, oh my gosh, like, how could you marry this guy? Like if he doesn’t do anything. Now in your book, you talk about like this little hit you might have gotten.

about how this mental load and this list, like that you have things to do will change having to do with like your pregnancy to do list compared to your husband Ben’s when you went to like the hospital and everything.

Yeah, I think it really starts. that’s when so many people have said this to me and I felt this too. I think it does start the division of labor, the unequal division of labor, at least for us did start in pregnancy. But again, like it’s easy to explain a lot of this away to yourself, you know, because at that time it was like, well, I’m the one growing the baby in my body. So I’m going to be more excited or I’m going to be thinking about it more. Or I have all the friends who know all the stuff about which supplies we need. So of course, I’m going to be the one who’s doing the research on that because they recommended stuff to me and makes no sense for me to

translate to him what my friends have told me to have them, him then research, you know? So there’s little things that I think, you and then I was like the one buying all the clothes, because I like, that’s really fun for me and he doesn’t care as much. So then I was able to say to myself like, oh, well, he doesn’t really care about what the baby wears. So he doesn’t need to be involved in that now. What I didn’t realize was if he doesn’t know what the sizes are, he doesn’t know what clothes to get the baby when the baby’s born. And he doesn’t know then that they need to be changed out for each season. And that stuff, when it’s small and it’s one baby, OK, maybe it’s doable. But when it’s

Speaker 2 (08:55.95)

the baby’s older and it becomes a kid and all of that stuff becomes exponential. And then you have another kid or whatever your dynamic might be, it just grows and grows. And I think that’s what it’s, it all starts so small. And I think that’s the problem that so many of us don’t realize. Like it doesn’t matter what you were before kids because of all of these expectations that we have as a society about what moms do and what dads do. Obviously I’m talking mostly to heteronormative families here, cause this is the dynamic that I’ve lived, but obviously there aren’t many other dynamics, but

Yeah, so I think that for me was the part that was really shocking was that like even those things that were maybe a small inkling during pregnancy, you can’t ever imagine how much they’re going to grow to the point where they’re untenable and the mom is losing her mind. Yeah.

Like you had a comics that you drew in the book that are sticking out my head right now. There was one where you were talking about how you were the one that was washing and folding and putting away the clothes before the baby was born. And you organized it the way you wanted it and everything. And you looked at it and you didn’t realize that that took your husband out of the equation where like you just said earlier, don’t know about sizes, doesn’t know about seasons, doesn’t know where they are, doesn’t know what you have.

people.

Speaker 3 (10:04.288)

So it kind of takes his role up. the other one that I utterly loved, and I think we can all hear this, like as soon as I, and with me, it’s when I see it in pictures is when that big light bulb goes off. So that’s why I’m going to say this and whatever. You had the example of like you and your husband with your separate laundry baskets, right? And then it was like, well, it was like the showing of the laundry baskets over time. And then once you had one baby, it made sense that like, you know, and when the baby like,

threw up, you threw some of the clothes in there with your clothes, and then all of a sudden it turned into you’re washing the baby’s clothes. So then all the baby’s clothes went into yours and your husband’s load kept getting smaller and yours kept getting bigger. And then it was the second baby. So then it’s like, okay, well, since I did the first one, I guess I’m getting all the second one again. And it shows how it just slowly becomes out of control. And I’m, and I’m just going to say, I was reflecting back on when I had kids and I’m like, oh my God, that is

I will first of all my ex didn’t do the laundry, but that’s beside the point. Like things.

Whole other issue. Yeah, there’s a-

there that we could dig into.

Speaker 3 (11:06.85)

My point is that yeah, things did slowly creep in and I kept like explaining it off and then now I’m looking back on this years back and going like, what a jerk, he gave all that to me. And now I’m going like, well, now that you say that, there were a few times where I didn’t think about the fact that I never said, whoa, whoa. Not that that would have helped in my scenario.

But it is one of those things that it slowly kind of instantly sneaks up on you so that you don’t realize that it’s a problem until it gets really, really big. And you have such a funny story about peanut butter that I want you to tell right after we take this break. So Mary Katherine, one of the most relatable stories in your book is the peanut butter story. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so I went back and forth about even putting this in the book because to me it feels like it’s like it happened, you know, many, many years ago. I don’t know, like 17, 16 years ago. But it still feels like it was this very like symbolic moment in our relationship when I realized, think, you know, again, this is about Ben, but I think it’s very like it really to me is like can be extrapolated to like just men versus women in society and how we are taught to be. And so the story is I’ll try to do a shorter version than I included in the book. But basically I was studying abroad in France.

And it was very hard to get peanut butter back then in France. And the only store that had it, it was like a tiny gross jar of not, it wasn’t anything that I recognized as peanut butter. It tastes bad. It was like $10. I had no money. I was in college. So I asked my husband, my then boyfriend, now husband, to send me a care package with peanut butter in it. And a lot of my friends, boyfriends were sending them little care packages. And he didn’t, he didn’t, blah, blah, blah. Then he was coming to visit over his fall break.

And so I said, please, please bring me some peanut butter. One of those things where every time we talked, I’d be like, have you gotten the peanut butter? And he’d like, no, not yet. I’ll get it. I’d say, OK, well, please just get like a really big, like the biggest container of gifs you can find. And OK, OK, OK. So come to the, we talked the day before he was supposed to fly to France. And I said, did you pack the peanut butter? And he said, no, I haven’t gotten it yet. I’ll see if my grandmother, who he was living with at the time, I’ll see if my grandmother can pick it up for you when she goes to the grocery store. And I was like.

Speaker 2 (13:20.846)

Hey, know, stay calm. I mean, this is like, you know, I’m still young. We’re talking long distance back. We didn’t have cell phones back then. We were on a little house phone. And so I said, you know, please, please just make sure you bring it and please make sure it’s as big as possible. And so I may have been telling the story a little bit wrong, but basically he shows up and after we have our wonderful reunion, we haven’t seen each other forever. I asked if he brought the peanut butter and he pulled out this like teeny tiny little saddest, smallest jar you could buy of Jeff.

And, you know, I was, okay, I thought you were gonna try to get a bigger one. I don’t know, my Grammy got it when she went to the store. Okay, you so like, I’m already like starting to get ticked off, because I’m like, you know, I asked you to do this, I’ve been asking for weeks, it was the one thing I wanted you to bring from the US. I begged for a bigger jar, you know, if had been me, I would have brought him five huge, I would have not put extra clothes in my, I would have brought a whole suitcase of jazz, you

are like the… words.

Yes!

And it was like, he couldn’t even be bothered. He couldn’t even be bothered to go to the grocery store to get it. was just, so, but I’m like, okay, okay. So at some point later in the trip, you know, of course I’m like so excited about eating this peanut butter and taking it back to my little apartment with me when we separate. And then at one point in the trip, I got out of the shower and I walked into our little tiny little hostel room and he had his finger and he was eating our peanut butter, dipping his finger in it, scooping it up and eating my peanut butter as a snack.

Speaker 2 (14:47.15)

I’m so sorry. Well, everyone hears the story of like, I hate him, I hate him. And I’m like, I know. But so what happened, we ended up breaking up. I mean, I was so upset. was so mad. We were in the rain on like a tour in Italy. And I was like, crying and we didn’t breaking up. Like I broke up with him over the peanut butter. And it was this whole thing where he just couldn’t understand why such a big deal. And I couldn’t understand why he couldn’t see that, you know, he wasn’t being thoughtful and he wasn’t putting in the care and the care I would put in, you know.

We obviously got back together. But it did feel like this moment. And even to this day, we still, have conversations that will be like, know, little, not huge fights, but I’ll say something, you know, like, it’s just like the peanut butter. He’ll say, it’s not about, I’ll say, it’s not about the peanut butter. And that was the fight we kept having was that it’s not about the peanut butter. It’s about you thinking about me. It’s about you showing that you care. It’s about you putting me in front of yourself, you know, and me doing, I mean, I’m always thinking of you. Why can’t you ever do that for me? And so,

I think for me, that was the first moment I saw, you know, the way men and women are so socialized, socialized so differently. know, we, so many women, and this is, again, I can’t say blanket statements for everybody, but for so many of us, women are taught to think of others and to take care of others and to always be putting them first. And I think men are taught to kind of put themselves first. you know, obviously there are tons of men who are so thoughtful and would have brought a whole suitcase of peanut butter. Ben is not that person. He has a lot of other wonderful qualities.

but he isn’t thoughtful in that way. And I don’t think he ever was expected to be. And no one taught him how to be. And I think I was taught from a very young age how to be.

You’re a female. We are always taught from a young age to be thoughtful. Am I right, JoAnn?

Speaker 1 (16:31.02)

Yeah, I had a very similar experience with my husband and had to do with dishes and washing the dishes because like his job in our house is to clean up after meals if I make the meals and then if he makes meals, I clean up after meals, whatever. So it would be the next morning and there would still be like dishes like his idea was cleaning up is just make sure that all the food was put away and the dog won’t get it. But it’s okay if I leave a pot sitting in the sink full of water because it’s like

taking off the crust of the chili or whatever. And had to have this conversation with him where it’s like, it is not about the dishes. It is about like, I come in, I see all the dishes and the story that goes through my head is up, JoAnn will just take care of it. She’ll just do the dishes. And that’s where I don’t feel taken care of. And I get very mad thinking that all of this is on me. And he’s like, but it’s not on you, but that’s what it happened.

That’s what happens. Like who ends up doing it? Yeah, I do because it has to be done.

And think it’s symbolic. think all of this household stuff, and I think that’s what I really want, one of the many things I wanted to say in this book is, you know, it’s so easy for people to say like, you who cares? But like all of the house stuff is a visual reminder to women that we’re like not able to do it all over and we’re failing. And I think the reason we feel that way is because we’ve been taught again, like from a young age that like these are our jobs and the household, the state of the households are our responsibility. And if it doesn’t look good, it’s on us. And so.

Even if we’ve agreed with our partners that they’re doing something, if it’s not done, we end up feeling like it’s on us. And so I think, you know, there’s so much of that kind of stuff in this book. sounds like it seems like it’s just stupid little things, but over the course of a lifetime together, over the course of many years and many days, it becomes something that big sucks the life force out of women. It doesn’t suck the life force out of men. does.

Speaker 1 (18:23.884)

Because it’s so interesting when you were talking about like the pregnancy stuff and how you like researched everything and how like you looked for everything. I feel like that is the role that a lot of women take when their kids get older too. The research role, the planning role, the learning role. And I was just reminded of this the other day because it takes so much explaining why we have to do something a certain way because we have done the research leading up to it.

This happens with my daughter’s now 16 and she’s driving and my husband doesn’t ask who her friends are, where they’re going or anything. And that’s all the info I have in my head. I know who my friends, who my kids like to talk to. I know their friends’ names. I know who’s giving you trouble, who’s not. And so they get into these moody states, kids do.

and automatically like I as a mom and you guys probably like have experienced this too, I know exactly what the issue is because I have put in that work to know what has led up to this particular thing. While my husband will be completely dumbfounded and react in a way that is insensitive to the child and then somehow I am in the wrong for bringing up something like, it’s just so much to explain that I think that we just quit trying to explain it.

Yeah, and I think there’s so many things like that. You you give that one example and we’ve given other little examples like the dishes or the laundry, things that appear little. But I think when you multiply that, like you’re saying, by maybe multiple kids, multiple years, you know, so many other dynamics, it’s just, it’s too much. And I think that this, for me, this all comes back to like, you know, again, like our societal structures and the expectations that we’ve set for moms. And so I think a lot of the fixing of this, I mean, there’s some obviously structural.

much bigger support systems that need to be broken and re-calibrated in our country and in our world. But from an individual standpoint, I think we have to, in our own homes, start to kind of break some of this stuff. I don’t think that’s easy. I don’t have the answers. That’s not like, I my book isn’t like a self-help book where you finish and you’re like, I’ve got all the tools. But I do think that, you know, it starts by like being like, I don’t have to, like, we had the exact same dishes issue in our house and

Speaker 2 (20:42.24)

we got to the point where whoever does bedtime, the other person has to do dishes. And I’ve had to train myself. If he decides to go to lay on the couch at 7 p.m. and not do the dishes on his night, and I come down and I want to have a panic attack because I see dishes everywhere, I have to like, just not do them. And so sometimes now he will not do them till 10 the next day. He works from home. So he’ll do them at 10 the next day. And I have to make breakfast for them in the morning for the kids with all those stupid dishes everywhere. like,

I just don’t do it. I don’t do it because I’m like, I will not because that’s what I did for so many years is I just huffed around angry and did them. And so now, know, yeah, he’s making his own bed because now he’s basically doing dishes 24 hours a day because he always leaves them. But like, I’m not touching the dishes anymore. If there’s always dishes piled up, fine. It’s on him. And I think it’s easier said than done. I’ve had to like really work on that. It’s like in therapy.

Right? Like there was a part two in your book you were talking about how like he’ll do it but then I would come in because he wasn’t doing it right. like it and it is so and with that with our kids too, right, JoAnn? Like I just feel like, man, you’re speaking to all of us.

So many things about what our partners do and so many things about what we ourselves then have to decide to do. And I want to talk about that right after this. Okay. So I don’t know if you’ve heard of this book yet, Mary Katherine. Of course, you probably know of Mel Robbins, but she wrote this book called The Letham Theory. Have you heard of this yet? No, I haven’t. I absolutely love it and I’m living my life by it right now because she has this theory.

that when other people have emotional reactions, when other people are having like other things that they’re doing, such as like husbands refusing to do the dishes until 10 a.m. the next morning, she has the theory of let them, let them not do the dishes until 10 a.m. the next morning. But there’s like a second part to that theory, which is let me, what am I gonna do when I let them? Am I gonna button and do the dishes? I’m gonna use that time for something else? Am I gonna use that time to remind?

Speaker 1 (22:39.214)

my partner to do the dishes and like totally like make the relationship a little more stressful? Like what am I gonna do? And that’s how you talked right there. You’re like, I am not doing dishes anymore. I have done that. I’m resentful. I am unhappy. Are there other things in your relationship where you’ve just like let them go and refuse to act in the same way you had before?

Yeah, I mean, there’s lots of little things like that, right? So like, before we had kids, he always made the bed. That was like his thing. And he was like very militant about it. And then we had kids and you know, life got crazy. And he stopped making the bed and I didn’t make the bed. I’m not making the bed. That’s his job. He’s always done that. So I we didn’t have our bed made for like three years, maybe four, which is fine. I who cares? It’s just a bed. like, really, would

wait, that really never bugged you?

I mean, of course it bugged me, I’m like, will, I’m not going to do it. Like I just had to like, you know, again, like I, to protect my piece, you know, but like, just wasn’t going to do it. And so he recently has started probably a year ago, he started making the bed again. And it was like a little tiny, it was like, took him like five years, but he makes the bed again every morning. I like, you know, there are so many things like that where I’ve had to just say, yes, this drives me crazy. But like, if I take it on, I will be stuck with it forever. Cause that’s how it works in our house. And that’s how it works with all of this stuff. And I’m

I’m plowing my way back from all the parenting things that I took on that I didn’t need to, you know, again, for many reasons. And I’m in the process of trying to get out of that and to like reclaim my life. So I’m not gonna add back on these stupid things like making the bed or doing the dishes. Like if it’s his job and he’s always been the one who took it on, it’s just, it’s like a self-talk. I have to just be like, no, no, no. And there’s many days when I have to go, no, no, no. I like put on blinders and walk by the dishes or, you know, like, and I want to make clear life. I don’t think this is all like.

Speaker 2 (24:28.514)

great, you know, obviously in a perfect world, we would like have long conversations about this and divvy it up and he would just do the dishes every night at seven. But like, that’s not how he’s built. And I have a choice to make as and I think we all have a choice to make like, do I want to be with this person? And my choice is yes, I really love him. We have a 20 year relationship, we built the whole life together. That’s important to me. So I’m making that choice to like, deal with these things that drive me insane. And I think, you know, there’s a fine line between like someone taking advantage of their partner.

In this case, mean like a man taking advantage. I talk in the book about weaponized incompetence, which we talked about last time I was on here. But, you I think there’s a fine line and I think you have to, each person as an individual has to figure that out. I never want these conversations to be, to make women think that it’s like okay to have a partner who doesn’t do anything. I don’t think that’s the case. I think it’s more like if your partner does it in their own way, in their own time, and that is something you can work with, it’s not gonna ruin your life, then I think it’s.

there’s something that’s worth letting go. know, just like he had to let go of the fact that like, I’m horrible at putting tops back on things, you know, like, it’s a give and take.

horrible at shutting cabinets and doors.

gosh I’m horrible at loading the dishwasher I’m not allowed to do it anymore even like

Speaker 3 (25:39.918)

You’re married to an engineer. Even my candy.

Like my son loads the dishwasher now and like even he will reload it if I have put any dishes in there whatsoever because my husband taught him how to it.

I know right I

Oh, it’s Okay

Speaker 1 (25:57.898)

it. I’m like, I am like taking the weaponized incompetent art form with that dishwasher, because I feel like we as women don’t get that very much. And so like with the dishes, I’m like, I’ll just lay this right here because no one likes how I do the dishwasher anyways.

Wait, I have to add to that. That is literally a struggle in my house right now. I have told my kids and my husband a million times over just put stuff in the dishwasher and they’ll leave it in the sink and then I’ll be like, why isn’t the sink? Well, you’re going to move it anyways. I’m like, I don’t care. The fact that you put it in the dishwasher is the important part. Ignore whether or not it gets moved. Just put it in. Like that. And I’ve had to tell my kids because I want them to know because I have a son and a daughter.

and they’re both teens and I want them to know it’s the fact that you put it in the dishwasher that makes the difference. And they’re like, why? I’m like, because then it makes me feel like you don’t think that one, can’t do it and you don’t think that it’s all my job. And I’m hoping, I’m hoping against hope that that like resonates and they keep that with them. That’s one of the few things that they’ll keep when they move in to adulthood.

Yeah, but I think so much of it too is is is feeling like you’re not alone So in this writing with the kids right like this isn’t my job like this house managing this house isn’t my job now in some relationships It is someone says I’m gonna go to work and a person says I’m gonna manage the house and they come up with it But even in those situations when that person comes home from work at 6 p.m. Then you should both be in charge of the house, right? This shouldn’t be that one person’s job continues 24 hours a day, but I think you know

If you go into a relationship and you have an agreement that you are both equal in this household, you are both raising these kids and taking care of this house together, you’re both working outside the home, whatever you come up with, then I think so many women, we just want to know that not everything is gonna fall to us. That when we don’t do something or when that someone else is gonna be there to pick it up, pick up the slack and vice versa. And then it’s not one person’s job. so I think, I think that’s yes, teaching our children that this is everyone’s job in the household is a huge way to move in that direction.

Speaker 2 (27:58.272)

a lot of, at least from what I’ve heard from a lot of my followers and people I know, is that a lot of the men in our generation weren’t necessarily taught to help around the house, because their mothers did everything for them. And women too, but I think, you know, modeling, women see their moms doing everything, so then, I feel like we didn’t…

about it as much. mean, I don’t feel like I was told that I had to take care of the house or that I had to learn how to cook and I had to learn to take care of other people’s needs. It’s just what was modeled for me. And so now we’re adults and we’re like, wait a minute, I like how that felt. I’m going to have a positive impact on my kids moving forward.

I saw

Speaker 2 (28:37.836)

Yeah, I think it’s it’s like the air we breathe, you know, like it’s like we’re all breathing the same air and women are being taught one thing and with that air and men are being taught something else. And so I think it is like very conscious. It’s exhausting, but it’s like it takes so much conscious work to change that.

does take so much conscious work. And at times, like, I feel ragey that it has to fall on women to do the conscious work. And I think it’s so hard, like, it’s so hard to actually see and get other people to realize that this is baked into our society, that, like, things don’t have to be this way. I see it a lot, online, of course, like, I post on social media and

The people who have the most problem with things I say are either the older generation, so like 60 and up women, some of the 60 and up women, men. And they’ll say things like, my gosh, how could you say that about your child? A parent is responsible for the behavior of their child. But like all these things that moms have dumped on them thinking that it’s their responsibility, but it’s not. It’s not.

Yeah, and I think, obviously your podcast is about guilt and I think that’s where so much of the guilt comes from. we talked about, I’m sure you all talk about this all the time and I know we talked about it last time, but that, you know, the guilt is that we feel like we’re failing at these 5,000 jobs that have been given to us. marriage. Including taking part in marriage, yes. Like we’re the kin keepers, we’re the ones who are supposed to keep everybody happy and keep everybody connected. All of that. And yes, being those stewards of the relationship. But I think that’s where so much of the guilt comes from is because we can’t.

Possibly do all these things and we can’t possibly do them all well and so until you know I think a big reason that so many moms struggle with guilt is because their partners aren’t taking on more of the household and more of the mental load of parenting and and maybe then They wouldn’t feel as guilty because they’d actually be able to do a better job at the things they were doing. Yeah

Speaker 1 (30:30.638)

Absolutely. It’s like I just want to paint the picture of like it is possible to feel like you are succeeding as a woman as a parent in your home But you can’t be doing all of it alone like your partner has to has to be there too and if your partner’s not there too, I mean it’s It’s one of those things where you need to examine your relationship. You need to have like this really

hard look at your relationship and what you’re willing to stand for and what you’re not willing to stand for and start having some tough conversations because the only

I think I think unfortunately like in our in our patriarchal society There’s just men are it’s the easy road, you know And there yes, I there are so many women who who like in this space who teachers who I think are wonderful and people who who are Coaching women and you know, a lot of them are a little more black and white like this you should be done Yeah, this is divorce territory versus like, know, and I think it’s more nuanced

It is nuanced, no it really is. I think you’re like, the part that is not nuanced is thinking that you need to suffer the rest of your life. you weren’t right, like that’s the part that’s not nuanced, but you’re right. there is no one size fits all plan that will work for every single person in every single scenario. But there are things that you can do no matter how deep you are in the hole of crap.

You do not

Speaker 1 (31:46.862)

to a T.

Speaker 3 (31:55.81)

I feel like I have, and that’s exactly what you talk about in your book. And that’s exactly what we talk about here at No Guilt Mom. Like no matter how deep you feel like you are in this hole of, my God, these routines and these habits have been going on for so long. How can I ever possibly make a difference? You can. There can be changes. You can eventually be happy. You’re not stuck in this role where you feel like everything is on you.

Yeah, and it’s funny because a lot of women assume it like we have a coaching community balance and we coach women like hundreds of women have come to the program and what I found that a lot of women assume that it is their job and they have not asked their husbands to take over and it first of all Let’s just recognize it sucks that we have to ask our husbands to take over something. It sucks It shouldn’t be that way Unfortunately, it is but what I’ve seen is that when

they have these conversations, their husbands are like, yeah, sure. Yeah, like it’s no big deal. And the men make it such not a big deal. Yeah, sure. That’s no big deal. That’s no big deal.

like, my god, the vast majority do actually love us and care about our happiness. But it doesn’t feel like that when we’re stuck in the day to day.

Yeah, and one that goes better.

Speaker 2 (33:06.894)

Yeah, well one of the things I talk about in the book too is like, you know I want to make sure that I’m clear too that it’s not just me throwing my husband under the bus I mean there is a lot that I did that in a dynamic wise because of my own postpartum anxiety because of my own you know issues and what I was modeled to me growing up where I took on stuff that I didn’t have to take on and I think that created a lot of imbalances too and so like perfect example is you know that I talk about in the book is that my I always did bedtime like I was just

It started with my daughter who never took a bottle, so I just had to do bedtime because I breastfed her every night before bed. And then I was the one who knew how to do bedtime because he’d never done it. So then I was just the bedtime person. And then it kept going. And then it was like, you know, we’re five years in with two kids and he’s never done bedtime because no one will let him. You know what He’s done it, but only when I’m gone. And if I’m home, I’m doing bedtime. And because if, you know, if we’re all home, it has to be me. And, you know, my dad was visiting and he’s a psychologist and he was like,

you know, I’m just wondering why Ben doesn’t ever do bedtime. And I’m like, we can’t, know, when I’m home, and he’s like, well, you know, you just could have a couple hard nights where Ben does bedtime and you’re home and you just get to do it. And then, and then he’s doing bedtime or you could lead to going to walk. And he like talked me through it. Like you just got to pull off the bandaid and he left and I’m like, okay, yeah. And I’m like, Ben, we got to start alternating bedtimes. And he’s like, sure. And I’m like, okay. And then of course, yeah, it was a couple hard nights and now we alternate bedtime and it’s fine. And like,

I could have gotten myself out of like five years of being so resentful because I was the only one who did this two hour long bedtime nightmare. But like, just thought I had to do it. I thought it was too hard, you know, to change it. Yeah. So I think there are so many things like that too, where we as the women who have always been doing the thing think it’s harder to change it than to just keep doing it. And I think that’s again a place where like I’ve had to learn like, no, it may suck to like have to change this and do the put in the work to like transition this task to him. But then I can be done with it or then I can be it can be equal or whatever.

And on the other side of that, I have so much more freedom. And now I listen to podcasts and do the dishes and I’m in heaven because I don’t have to do bedtime every other night.

Speaker 1 (35:03.266)

And also I feel like we try to spare our husbands feelings unnecessarily and their comfort level unnecessarily thinking that if they have to do this, my God, they’re gonna hate me or something like that. That’s the crazy narrative that used to go through my head. And it’s just simply not true. And you’re right, like on the other side, it’s so blissful and so nice and having bedtimes off is wonderful. In your book, Mary and Catherine, you also go into like how you guys changed the relationship and what you did to change that.

I’m gonna leave that as a little cliffhanger because I think people need to go and get your book. So tell us about your book and where they can get it.

Yeah, so it’s out now and you can get it anywhere bookstores fold. It’s on Amazon. It’s on, I don’t know exactly what bookstores, I’m not sure which indie bookstores, but definitely Barnes and Noble. A lot of independent stores are stocking it. But yeah, it’s a hard cover. It’s beautiful. I think my publisher did such a good job. It’s like a work of art. really proud of it. And it took like three years to write. So I’m glad it’s finally out. That’s the love right there.

That is a word.

That is your baby. That is your third baby out there in the world.

Speaker 2 (36:07.948)

sure is. Yeah, feels like it’s very scary, you know, just like launching a little baby out into the world. It’s exciting, but scary.

Well, I know that our audience is going to love it. Like go get Mary Katherine’s book, Mama Needs a Minute. And Mary Katherine, it’s been great to induct you into the No Guilt Mom Two Timer Club. Congratulations. You’re official now. you. We will talk to you soon.

I’m on.

Speaker 2 (36:31.704)

Thanks so much.

I love talking to Mary Katherine because she’s so relatable. She’s so in line with everything we talk about here at No Guilt Bomb. And guys go get her book. It is beautiful. It is fun. It is an easy read because it’s a lot of comics. It’s a lot of comics.

It’s my favorite kind of book. And I’m not ashamed to say as a 45 year old, I love my books with pictures.

So, please, if you love this episode, or even if you just liked it little bit, can you go and give us a review? We would so, so appreciate it. It really helps us reach more people and more moms because that’s how, you know, the podcast software works. Apple Podcasts, the podcasts that get the reviews, get pushed to more people. So, if you can leave us a review, we would so, so appreciate it.

And maybe hit a share. Maybe hit a share in this episode with another mom that you know will get it. Yes. You’ll be like, my gosh, they need to see the book. needs a minute. They need to hear all about it.

Speaker 1 (37:31.626)

Exactly. And until next time, remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk to you later.

Thanks for stopping by.