Feeling Mom Guilt Lately? We Have the Solution for You with Michelle Grosser Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

JoAnn Crohn: Welcome to the no guilt mom podcast. I am your host, JoAnn Crohn joined here by my fantastic cohost, Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker: Hello, hello, everybody. How are you guys doing? I’m trying to change it up a little.

JoAnn Crohn: Hello. I always look like fantastic. Yes. Do do do do do do

Brie Tucker: Flip your hair like the, like the 

JoAnn Crohn: flip the hair, flip the hair, hair,

Brie Tucker: or salon selectives, whatever it was back in the 

JoAnn Crohn: Toss, toss from, Wicked, the musical, Galinda’s like, toss, toss, toss, anyone who watches Wicked, you get it. You get 

Brie Tucker: I’ve only seen it once, so I don’t remember it as well.

JoAnn Crohn: I’ve seen it like four or five times, I think. I love that. I love that musical. it’s One of my things with play is going to go see musicals, which really digs in a little with our guest today.

Brie Tucker: does. What a great segue. Way.

JoAnn Crohn: because, we talked to a lot of moms who just feel tired, who feel exhausted and, they think You know, something is chronic, they’re chronically ill or they’re having these aches and pains that they don’t know about.

And our guests, Michelle grocer had those as well. And she found a really interesting way to deal with them. and she’s going to tell you about that in our interview with her. She is a nervous system expert, certified master life coach and host of the calm mom podcast through somatic and neuroscience based modalities.

She coaches women. Through discovering what’s beneath their triggers and emotions so they can begin their healing journey and find peace in the present. Michelle is also the proud mom to her two kids, ages five and six, and we hope you enjoy our interview with Michelle. Welcome Michelle to the no guilt mom podcast. I am so excited to dig into this conversation with you, because it’s fascinating to me how much our body. Plays into our anxiety. Our emotions are blowing up at our kids and you just dig into everything. So welcome. Welcome.

Michelle Grosser: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. And we were just talking a little bit how you are juggling all the things like things that I think cause me stress when I’m being pulled in opposite directions and have to pull my focus. That’s what you’re doing right now. You’re, practicing law, you’re coaching, and you’re doing a podcast.

how are you keeping calm throughout all of those things?

Michelle Grosser: I am wearing so many hats right now that when I like think about it, my brain hurts. I am, I’m still practicing law. I have two daughters, a five and six year old. So you guys know how that is married coaching. I have a podcast. And then on top of all of that, about two years ago, my husband and I podcast.

I planted a church here in Miami. So we’re like doing midweek ministries and Sunday stuff and it’s just it’s so much and I’m so grateful because if you had thrown all that stuff at me, like five years ago, 10 years ago, there’s just no way I didn’t have the capacity, but because I’ve been able to do this nervous system work and really dig into it and set a good foundation and really just learn how to increase my capacity.

I’m able to hold more. And it’s not any special gift or anything that I have. we all have the ability. We just need the tools to increase that capacity. And I know for you guys, for me, for people listening, we don’t necessarily want to handle less life, right? we all have all of these big goals and ambitions and dreams and things with our family and professionally and hobbies and all these beautiful things.

And when we work with our nervous system, we can grow the capacity to hold all that life is throwing at us. But yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s busy.

JoAnn Crohn: That is really busy. How did you discover this nervous system? stuff like how did you figure out that that’s what you needed to delve into?

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. So I’ve always been the type of person who’s really in her head, super logical, loves to analyze things. I love my checklists and my to do lists and I went to law school. Right. So like super, super in my head, and very unaware and disconnected from my emotional body. thinking that I used to have pride, I think, in the fact that I wasn’t one of those women who like cry or like is dramatic.

and I just didn’t realize how out of touch I was with all of that. and when my first daughter was born almost seven years ago, I was hit burnout so hard. I wasn’t slowing down and my body just was like, fine, I’ll take over and I’ll shut this whole thing down. and it hit me really hard.

And I started seeking. Help. And I experienced postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. And the more that I learned about all of this stuff, I saw the underlying thread through all of it. And it all came back to the regulation of my nervous system. So I just went on a deep dive. I took a year off and I studied nothing but the nervous system.

I got certified as a neurological fitness expert. I did a year long master coach certification program. And the change that I experienced in my mood and my energy levels and learning better habits and tools and all of these things. I’m now just on a mission to share it with other moms because it’s changed.

everything for me.

Brie Tucker: That’s amazing. 

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. 

Brie Tucker: Like I’m just sitting here kind of clueless what to say next. Oh my god

JoAnn Crohn: so That that’s really interesting that you said that you took a lot of pride in not being able to cry because I Really beat myself up about being one of those people who could not cry like being So in touch with emotions that I can’t hide a single thing on my face and it’s good to hear you say that the almost repercussions coming from being the opposite direction that there needs to be this interplay of emotions and what your body’s feeling and what your mind is able to put out there in the world.

So like when you first started working on nervous system, what were some of the symptoms you had that your nervous system was dysregulated?

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. So a lot of them I chalked up to just new mom life, chronic fatigue, brain fog, procrastinating feeling just unexplained aches and pains in my body, emotional volatility, anxiety, depression. a lot of physical symptoms too. I’ve always had gut issues and food sensitivities and my mom had autoimmune conditions.

So I always thought that was just something going on with maybe it was like a hormone issue, an adrenal fatigue issue, burnout. and a lot of these things I was experiencing. You know, you feel it and you have this sense that it’s off and then you go to see your doctor and they’re like, well, that’s just like new mom life.

It’s to be expected. And then your kids are like four or five and you’re like, but I still, I still feel this way. and you’re like, do some labs, like something’s gotta be off and maybe this is hormonal or whatever. And they come back and they’re like, well, you’re within. range. I had a client yesterday tell me she had asked her doctor to run some labs because she was just feeling so off.

And, everything came back normal on her doc. She’s 37 and her doctor told her, well, that’s just part of getting older. That’s why you’re tired all the time. I

JoAnn Crohn: 37.

Like that’s not supposed to be right.

Michelle Grosser: No. So those are all symptoms of a dysregulated nervous system. it’s become normalized, especially for women, especially for moms.

And it’s a myth. 

Brie Tucker: why is it it feels like so often we go to the doctor as women and we’re told Oh, it’s just getting older. Oh Perhaps your time of the month is happening or perhaps you’re getting ready to start going through the change, especially if you’re like older than 

JoAnn Crohn: The change. Why don’t, why don’t they just call it like menopause? Let’s, let’s just say it’s menopause. It’s normal system. It’s a normal thing.

Brie Tucker: yeah, it’s oh, you can’t sleep at night. Oh, it’s probably just that. And, and, but yet, like, I feel like when men go, they do a lot more for them. They don’t just chalk it up all the time. And we just get Swept under the rug.

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. We’re gaslit, right? Like we were made to think that we’re crazy or we’re making it up or we’re being, you know, dramatic or emotional, overly 

Brie Tucker: overly you’re being you’re making a big deal out of nothing

Michelle Grosser: That’s

JoAnn Crohn: Cause it can’t be quantified by traditional medicine. there’s no way to take a test and measure it. I was listening to this great interview with, Maté. so he wrote this new book, the myth of normal, and I’m just learning who he is free. He’s, he’s phenomenal from what I’ve heard so far.

That’s all I could tell you. Cause that’s all I know. But

Michelle Grosser: Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: describing how, like as a clinician, they have bacteria in a Petri dish and. it’s put in a broth, which is called the culture. And when you put bacteria in a broth and it grows well, that’s a thriving culture.

It’s a good thing. When you put the bacteria in another Petri dish, and if it’s showing signs of decay or signs of growth or signs of pathologies in the instance, like anxiety, depression, fatigue, you would call it a bad culture. It’s the bad broth it’s in. And so thinking of terms of moms, I thought I heard that and I’m like, my gosh, it is really the culture in a broader sense that we’re in that is causing a lot of our symptoms.

And unless we realize that and deal with that, I don’t see a way out of it, but I have hope, Michelle, because you’ve been able to take the same culture that we’re all in and figure out a way through it. so I really want to hear how you do that right after we take this break.

So, Michelle, you talked before about how you were able to regulate your dysregulated nervous system. how can we start to do this?

Michelle Grosser: Yeah, so I think what you were talking about with the culture is a great place to start because I think part of it is being so intentional about being counterculture, right? And really identifying those areas that are contributing to the hustle and the push and all of these things that drive us to burnout and the stress that we’re putting on our body and that it’s carrying.

That leads to dysregulation. So when I talk about it in that broad sense of like kind of habits where we can start, there’s three things that I encourage every moms to do to help support their nervous systems every day. And you can incorporate these into like your morning routine or break them up during the day.

But the first one is 10 minutes of stillness. every day. true stillness, not listening to a podcast, not reading a book, not anything, but learning to sit and allow your body to understand what it feels like and that it is safe to be in a place of rest and to be in a place where your body can function and heal and have this space to do the things that it needs to do that we’re often not able to do because we’re going all the time.

So 10 minutes of stillness. 10 minutes of movement. we all know the benefits of exercise, the people that do it and feel good after always talking about it, right? So it’s,

JoAnn Crohn: I’m one of those people. I’m sorry.

Michelle Grosser: it’s real. It’s real. So am I.

Brie Tucker: and Breezy not I am not so 

Michelle Grosser: and it doesn’t have to be crossfit, like from a nervous system perspective, just taking a walk around the block, 10 minutes can make an impact on your nervous system. And then the third one is my favorite one, especially for moms, and it’s 10 minutes of play every day. we are so disconnected with play, with pleasure, with enjoyment, with sitting in that sustained joy.

I think we know we have to like, be able to celebrate our wins to. Achieve goals and all of these different things, but we’re so uncomfortable with it for some reason we’ll celebrate for six seconds And it’s like all right on to the next thing, but really training ourselves and also I think As moms, it’s an to re explore our identity, right?

So much of that, I think, gets shifted or stretched or whatever in motherhood. But really exploring like, what are the things that light me up? What are my hobbies? What are the things that make me feel alive?  And then cultivating those. 

Brie Tucker: yeah, I like that you clarified that because I think that a lot of our listeners are probably going to hear the 10 minutes of player pleasure and go, okay, so I need to play with my kids for 10 minutes. And that’s not  what you’re talking 

JoAnn Crohn: that’s 

Michelle Grosser: No. 

JoAnn Crohn: of pleasure. Sometimes it really 

Brie Tucker: as much as I would love minor teens now So i’m just stretching back to when they were younger as much as I loved playing barbies Myself as a child playing barbies with my child was not as much fun 

Michelle Grosser: hate Barbies. I always 

Brie Tucker: Well, I had one kid who always played like disaster barbie and joanne’s gonna know which kid this was one kid that always like Barbie’s going in a hurricane and then Barbie would fly across the room and then the other kid would be like this and then if you made Barbie say the wrong thing, then you got chastised, yelled at, and you’re just like, okay, so what’s Barbie supposed to say now,

JoAnn Crohn: That’s how kids are for sure. Like when my four year old nephew came over two weekends ago, he’s auntie, Joe, let’s play fort. And I’m like, okay. And he lays down pillows. He’s like, you lay down right there. And I’m like, okay, I’ll be good with that. But then he goes off and does something else.

I go to the couch, I’m reading a book. He’s like, auntie, Joe, why are you laying down? I’m like, oh, I’m reading this book. He’s like, it’s not book time. It’s fort time. Come back here. And then he sits me down. He’s like. Auntie Joe, you need to focus. It’s not like you get yelled at and chastised when you get you play with your kids.

It is not enjoy it. It is not

Brie Tucker: so let’s, can we dive into that just a little bit more? Because I feel like so many of us are so disconnected from that play piece. Like I hear the stillness, it scares the crap out of me to sit still for 10 minutes and not do anything, not listen to a podcast, not listen to an audiobook.

That freaks me out. and 10 minutes of movement, not my favorite, but I can do it. I can do it. But the 10 minutes of play, I think that’s something that’s going to be a lot harder for people to understand. So like, if your play is, I don’t know, I’m thinking like, I like to kayak. I can’t do that for 10 minutes a day. So like, how do you explore other ways to, find those other habits? Like you said, those things that light you up.

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. So an easy way to get play and movement and at the same time is to set joy alarms on your phone. 

I teach my clients this. Yeah. So I start with four a day, like breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and then one at night. And when they go off, it is just. I have a playlist, I go on Spotify, I play my playlist and I dance for one song and sometimes it happens in the car, sometimes it happens in the kitchen, sometimes it happens wherever but that’s a great way to access, 

right, and grow your capacity for pleasure and for joy. Dancing, singing is great, also, vagus nerve. So that’s great. Exploring hobbies you had when you were a kid, whether you’re artistic or not, just accessing creativity is a great way to sit and play. and just giving yourself permission to do that.

And I love, Bri, that you said 10 minutes of stillness is terrifying to you or it feels like it’d be really uncomfortable because people feel like that with play too, I think. And I think what a beautiful invitation to lean in because there’s something there, right? There’s a reason why we’re avoiding that.

JoAnn Crohn: yeah. And I love the joy alarms. And you said something about the vagus nerve. Can you explain for everybody what that vagus nerve is and what the importance is of really calming it?

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. So we all have obviously our nervous system. so from the base of our spine, there’s this. Network of nerves that runs to all of our major organs. and within our nervous system there are different neuro circuits. So when we have an understanding of how we’re feeling, and that’s an indication of what circuit we’re operating in, we can help bring ourselves back to regulation.

So we notice that we’re feeling. anxious or angry or irritable or that activated energy. There are things that we can do that help to tone that vagus nerve and help to bring and return our body back to a state of regulation, which is where we want to spend most of our time. That’s where we have access to.

our prefrontal cortex and the part of our brain that makes us like really awesome human beings who can get along with other human beings and do really great things, and not lose our mind at our kids, right? So we want to spend time there. So we want to have tools. We want to be able to notice where we’re at and then have tools to help bring us back to regulation.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, that regulation, it is hard because if you do this 10 minutes of stillness and this 10 minutes of movement and this 10 minutes of play, which I love your dancing example, because I feel like I shake like all the time, like with my dance, and it’s totally fun. There’s still those points where you feel so dysregulated and you don’t know what to do.

so my question for you is that once you started this practice, how long was it until you saw some of those? Other things that you mentioned, the fatigue, the anxiety and depression go away. So like people would know when to expect it. And, I want you to answer that right after this break. So we were talking about how long it could be until people can expect to feel some of the relief from these other symptoms once they start in this practice of regulating their nervous system.

So how did it happen for you, Michelle?

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. So I think like with any new habit, which is really just a new neuropathway, the rate at which you see change is probably going to be highly correlated to the rate at which you are consistent in that new patterning. so I know for me, there were some things that I did where I saw change almost.

Immediately, like within maybe days, I was like, wow, like starkly, I feel so different in my body. The anxiety feels like it’s gone, or at least when it comes, I know things that I can do. And then there are other things that had taken more of a toll on my body. I think, I was struggling from insomnia that I think was as a result of really high cortisol levels for a long time.

Brie Tucker: See, that’s that insomnia, man. it gets all of us.

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. Yeah. And then it took, I, it took time. It took maybe trying to think for me, I don’t know, maybe two or three months before I was like, wow, I’m feeling better before I go to sleep. My habits are better around my sleep and taking care of myself better holistically. I have changed my schedule and my pace and the way I think about things.

I have tools to regulate my nervous system and I’m sleeping so much better. so I think it varies, but the thing with our body is that. it doesn’t speak a verbal language. So I think so often we get stuck up here and we feel something or like we’re struggling with something like insomnia or anxiety.

And we’re like, just calm down. It’s no big deal. Or just sleep. Like just sleep. Like we want to tell ourselves these things. And so I, it’s even worse when our partner tells us, right? just calm down. It’s not a big deal. And it’s now I’m more angry. No more. I’m more upset. It doesn’t work.

It  doesn’t work. Yeah. 

JoAnn Crohn: me. Like the best way to get someone amped up is to tell them to calm down.

Michelle Grosser: Yeah, our kids Forget 

Brie Tucker: Just chill out. Mmmmm.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah.

Michelle Grosser: Not so helpful.

Not so helpful. but we can show our body how to do these things, which is really bringing felt safety to our body to bring it back to regulation that doesn’t involve any words or any thoughts or any mindset, but the way our body communicates. And these are great things that we can teach our kids when they’re experiencing dysregulation.

Also, movement, sound, gentle and appropriate touch, Breath, all of these things really help to communicate safety to our nervous system. And ultimately what brings regulation.

JoAnn Crohn: is so interesting. And I can see now how the 10 minutes of play and using music and integrating that into it can then tell our body that, Hey, it’s time to calm down

Michelle Grosser: Yeah. 

Right. If a bear is chasing you, you’re not going to be dancing.

JoAnn Crohn: No, you’re not. 

Michelle Grosser: it’s like you take it 

all the way back, right? You’re signaling to your system. The same thing with breath work. Like we think about it, but honestly, long exhales. if I’m running from a threat, I’m not breathing slowly and deeply.

So those are all signals you’re sending your system of safety.

JoAnn Crohn: Really makes sense to me. I’m able to wrap my head around that one because sometimes with telling people to take a big breath, you’re like, okay, 

 It goes back to this conversation we had with Dr. Lisa Demore, and she’s like talking about anxiety and how your body is thinking that there is a tiger chasing you. So learning the breath work is telling your body, no tiger exists in this situation. You can calm down. and it.

Obviously, it works. So Michelle, what do you have coming up for you right now that you’re excited about?

Michelle Grosser: I think as we move into, as we’re recording this, right, into the holidays, I have made an intention to do so much less this holiday season.

So I, um, yeah, I am really leaning into that. and I don’t mean less in a sense of just like less. You know, fewer toys or something like that or gifts or whatever, but really just like being intentional about saying no and creating white space and where we spend our time and our energy.

I think that’s a time of year that we can all get caught up in all the things, which is really dysregulating for our systems. Our systems thrive. and slowness and stillness. So I think that, we look back and it’s man, that was so stressful and then we lose the point of it all.

so I think that’s a, that’s something I’m excited to. And then, professionally I’m creating a 28 day nervous system reset that I’m really excited about that I think is gonna be really helpful for moms, a little work they can do every day, practical tools and tips they can incorporate. And also turn around and then teach their children when they’re noticing dysregulation arising or those big emotions arising, to help bring that safety to their bodies.

So excited about all of that.

JoAnn Crohn: That sounds amazing. And Michelle, I am so happy that you joined us here and, that I got to be on your podcast, the call mom podcast. So make sure you go check out Michelle. And, thank you again for being here.

Michelle Grosser: Thanks for having me.

JoAnn Crohn: We have so much stress, Bri. I was just looking at like, when we record the podcast, we can see ourselves, of course, on camera, because we record video. And I have this pimple right here, and I have these pimples all down here in this breakout from like our big summit week. 

Brie Tucker: my face is still recovering from it

JoAnn Crohn: it is recovering.

It’s so recovering. And like, all of this stuff.

Brie Tucker: well and in the interview you heard me jump on the thing about the whole sleep thing because I have not been sleeping Well since and I can guarantee you it’s because my stress level is still like sky high it’s not just the summit that’s done. That’s not causing the stress anymore but it is I definitely have a lot of other things going on and I mean now that she says it Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I have a lot of external stress things going on, and that’s why I have not been able to sleep. And if you can’t sleep, like that just knocks everything out, right? 

JoAnn Crohn: can’t recharge. 

So is there any of the practices she said, like how I love the brain body connection. And so hearing what she said, are you more inclined to do that 10 minutes of stillness to calm your body down

Brie Tucker: So I’m inclined to do it, but I’m wondering if, I know she said, you can’t listen to a podcast or anything, but I’m wondering, I could probably, so, You know me, you know that when I get nervous, I keep talking because I can’t take the silence. that is a hard thing for me to lay still.

So. I think I wanted to do but I can do it when I’m in yoga class and you’ve got like that just, kind of music in the

background. So I think I could do it with that. And I have always found that I do better with sleep. With meditation, but it’s more so like the sounds but the meditation. So I think I’m gonna yeah, I’m gonna try it.

I need to because I’m running out of sleeping pills

JoAnn Crohn: it reminded me when we talked with Ned Johnson and Dr. Bill Stixrud, episodes ago. We’ll put that episode for you in the show notes, but Bill talked about his, experience with transcendental meditation, and that’s the stillness. That I think Michelle is referring to too.

And so now I see it. I see how meditation is that thing that it’s calming your body down so that your mind knows that there’s not a threat and it stops releasing the cortisol and then you’re able to function a lot better. It’s so interesting to me because This morning, I was talking with my husband and he’s cause there’s all these changes.

We’re doing a no guilt mom right now, which are super, super exciting. so exciting. I am so

Brie Tucker: tiny bit stressful

JoAnn Crohn: It’s stressful too, because whenever you make a change, there’s always some backlash against it by people. and. Me being a total people pleaser internalize all that backlash is my fault as something that I need to then go and fix.

And that is something I’m working on personally, but at night I’ve just been a shell of myself and it’s actually reminding me about what I’ve seen in him at night too. And I was just telling him this and he’s, I was like, out of anybody I know, like you would totally understand. And he’s yeah, actually I’ve been sleeping better the past two weeks than I’ve slept in two years.

Because he has made a concerted effort to deal with his stress. I mean, he’s gone to the doctor now about his stress. He’s more in control of his work environment because he got promoted and he’s restructuring things the way he sees them. And. Things are now finally falling into place where the cortisol is lowering, and he’s able to regulate again, which is great to see, and it really shows the impact of how our body and the chemicals and hormones that our body produces, we have a little bit of control over that if we take these practices of meditation, of like movement, of play, and work them into our lives.You’re- 

Brie Tucker: which I know some I’m definitely the person that hears like I have to do more and it just makes me feel overwhelmed and I want to shut down and just crawl under my blankets and just like ignore that it was even suggested because it’s just more things I got to figure out how to put into my day. Really. I have to say as somebody who is hesitant to do, to make change, Joanne can always laugh about that with me. don’t move my 

cheese brie. Like don’t I, because I have actually done some of these practices while I feel like if I were a cartoon, I would be the person that’s standing in the sand and someone is shoving me through the sand to make these changes.

Normally it’s Joanne that’s shoving, but that’s okay. Because it’s a good thing because like you push, I finally go ahead and like, fine, I’ll do it. And then I start to notice the improvements from it for sure. So while you may hear all of this, like the 10 minutes of stillness, 10 minutes of movement, 10 minutes of play pleasure, and it’s like, Oh my God, that is so much to do.

It really is worth it once you’re able to start doing it. 

So 

JoAnn Crohn: that you’re able to speak from personal experience on that too. And something that I think when you’re in that stress state, you don’t think of is when you add these things in, it’s not really adding something additional. You’re going to be taking some stuff away. You don’t know what you’re going to be taking away yet, because right now you’re in this reactive state where you’re reacting to everything in your body is pumped up and you’re just go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

And when you do these 10 minutes of stillness, you’re able to start stepping back after you do them. It’s some time, like it’s a habit that forms. But after you do this, You could see, Oh, wait a minute. I don’t have to do that thing. I’m not going to do that. That’s not worth my time. And I’m not going to do that.

That’s not worth my time. And you start saying no to all of these things that are just reactionary because your brain comes 

Brie Tucker: has it 

JoAnn Crohn: it’s back online. 

Brie Tucker: Yeah. it has time to 

JoAnn Crohn: online. 

So it’s this isn’t extra. It’s going to be something that’s going to improve your whole quality of life because it’s bringing your thinking brain back online.

So you stop reacting and you’re able to be more intentional.

Brie Tucker: which I feel like Is something that we talk about a lot in our balance coaching program Like we do a lot of talking about how practicing small habits can make those bigger changes our habit tracker and about how Saying no and letting go of things that aren’t serving you how helpful that is 

JoAnn Crohn: We actually give you the tools to do it. And one of the tools we have is actually our home responsibility calculator, which we’re giving it to you for free. You can go get it at balance for moms dot com And it’ll help you see everything that you’re doing Everything that you’re doing in relation to everybody else in your house And once you see those percentages, oh my goodness I hope that is the first like sign that things need to change around here because this is Insane,

Brie Tucker: well a lot of times 

you don’t realize what you’re doing until it’s all put out on a sheet of paper and you’re like, oh crap

JoAnn Crohn: Yes. That’s a balance for moms. com. And we will have that in the show notes as well. And until next time, remember the best mom’s a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker: thanks for stopping by