Podcast Episode 363: Beyond Meltdowns: How the Double Empathy Problem Changes Parenting Forever Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

Brie Tucker (00:00.878)

I really have to think about this. I wonder why I don’t give my kids the same leeway that I was just saying about the whole not being able to process things and not being able to hear what’s being said. I’m having an introspective moment here on mic about this.

JoAnn Crohn (00:18.000)

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host JoAnn Crohn, joined here by the empathetic Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker (00:25.110)

Hello, hello everybody, how are you? We were preparing for this episode because we’re batching a couple today and I was like, who’s ready to be a pathetic?

JoAnn Crohn (00:38.000)

It’s like the wrestler, empathetic wrestling. There is a movie coming out and this is how the ADHD brain works. But I think I told you about this book I read called Margo’s Got Money Troubles is by Rufy Thorne. I really, really recommend it. Basically, it’s about a girl who gets pregnant and decides that she needs to support her kids and makes the decision to start an only fans account.

Now it sounds very scandalous, but it goes into the really the deep emotions involved in both raising a child and also the choices that women take over their sexuality and how to use that. It’s such a good book.

Brie Tucker (01:17.198)

It sounds amazing. I, if I, yeah, I’m like listening to that going like, yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (01:23.83)

It just deals with so many complicated issues and like things that are nuanced and how we usually judge people for their actions in this area, especially like in terms of OnlyFans. it just like, you’re like, you read the story of this girl and you’re like, my gosh, like, yes, this is why she did it. This is, you know, it makes sense.

Brie Tucker (01:42.040)

I have to say, this is Brie’s personal perspective and I have had this perspective since I was, as long as I can remember, so probably middle school, high school. I have never understood why people put down like exotic dancers, women that are dancing for money. It’s not Us

people are willing to pay us just to see what we have every day like I don’t I don’t get how that’s a how that’s a put down thing like yeah yeah I don’t know I know that will give me on a whole nother soapbox a whole nother episode but yeah yeah

JoAnn Crohn (02:21.800)

But the reason I connected that with wrestling.

JoAnn Crohn (02:31.47)

is because in the book Margot’s dad moves in with her who is a former professional wrestler. And he was like a Hulk Hogan of his day. Think of it that way. And it just ends up being this beautiful, beautiful relationship between the two of them. And they’re making a movie about this and Nick Offerman is playing the wrestler dad. And so I just saw him like look like the wrestler and he has tattoos on his arms. Nick Offerman, yeah.

Brie Tucker (02:59.150)

I love that. Who’s playing Margot?

JoAnn Crohn (03:02.540)

I can’t remember who’s playing Margot, but I do know Michelle Pfeiffer is playing Margot’s mom, who is just perfect.

Perfect cast. 

Brie Tucker (03:09.090)

I’m thinking in my head and I’m sure it’s partially because of the name. I’m like, ooh, Margot Robbie.

JoAnn Crohn (03:15.500)

yeah, no Margot Robbie is actually a little bit too old to be playing Margot because Margot gets pregnant when she’s in college. So she’s like in her early 20s in the story. Let me see. I like my sister-in-law. I love the book here. I have to show you there’s a picture of Nick Offerman. I was thinking of

Brie Tucker (03:33.666)

my god, he’s buff!

JoAnn Crohn (03:35.600)

Yeah, he’s buff in this right? and then Margot Elle Fanning is playing Margot.

JoAnn Crohn (03:46.068)

So guys, like off shoot, go read Margot’s Got Money Troubles. Go prepare. Yeah, we should totally reach out to the author to Rufi Thorne. Like she would be a great guest and talking about all those issues with women. my gosh, we should totally do it. I love it. Grab her today. But today we’re actually talking about something that kind of relates to this feeling of like empathy for other people, including empathy for our kids. And my husband and I talk about autism a lot.

Brie Tucker (03:50.180)

So that you’re ready for the movie.

JoAnn Crohn (04:15.45)

because it’s very prevalent in our family. And something that he actually told me about is this theory called the double empathy problem. And what this is, is it’s flipping the script on how people have been taught to think of autistic people. Because the previous kind of dialogue, the previous narrative was that people with autism lack empathy. And it’s just not true. But we’re going to show you how you can use this double empathy problem.

to actually improve your parenting, even if your kid is not neurodiverse. This actually improves your entire outlook on the world. So stay tuned. We have an amazing episode for you. Let’s get on with the show.

JoAnn Crohn (05:03.042)

You want mom life to be easier. That’s our goal too. Our mission is to raise more self-sufficient and independent kids. We’re going to have fun doing it. We’re going to help you delegate and step back. Each episode, we’ll tackle strategies for positive discipline, making our kids more responsible and making our lives better in the process. Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast.

JoAnn Crohn (05:36.386)

So the double empathy problem. What this is, is instead of thinking, and I’m just gonna talk about first autistic people first and then broaden it to the wider set of people, of kids, of all neurodiversity, of the whole human race. It’s gonna be an impactful episode, people. But I said the previous narrative was that people with autism lack empathy. And it’s actually not that they lack empathy, it’s that

People dealing with autistic people lack empathy for their situation. It’s a double empathy problem. Whereas, yes, people with autism may not be able to fully empathize with what we’re going through, but we are not fully empathizing with what autistic people are going through either. Expecting them to conform without making an effort on our end to understand their inner thought process.

works.

Brie Tucker (06:34.348)

I feel like a lot of times that’s because we see it as normal versus abnormal versus different. And we feel like, okay, well, in order for people need to be meeting at the norm and not giving enough understanding to the fact that norm is subjective.

JoAnn Crohn (06:55.906)

Totally subjective.

subjective.

This was actually first created by Dr. Damian Milton. He is a UK researcher and he first got onto this because his son had autism. And then throughout his research and studies, he found that he had Asperger’s syndrome, which is a form of autism as well. And it’s really interesting because something like Asperger’s is often referred to as high functioning autism. And when we refer to somebody as high functioning,

We are also, I learned this through discussions with my husband, we’re also diminishing their inner struggle and turmoil because it may look like they are fitting in well with society, but actually what they’re doing is that they have developed a set of masking behaviors of things that they know they have to actually put on an act to seem quote unquote normal.

so that other people won’t dismiss them. And that is incredibly exhausting. mean, you and… Yeah, you and I know, Brie, like with ADHD, we have a few masking behaviors as well, so people won’t think we’re too much.

Brie Tucker (08:13.472)

I was gonna say like, we see this every day in our lives. So like both you and I have numerous people in our lives that we love that have autism or on the autistic spectrum, more than the average bear. Like everybody has some sensory issues and sensory difficulties are a big portion of autism, but it’s a spectrum. Not everybody has the same amount. But what I like to kind of come back to is just pointing out, even if you’re, you’re not used to masking.

I’m gonna tell you, you do masking. Think about any time where you have had to bottle everything up and pretend like you’re okay for the good of others or the good of the situation. Example one in parenting, a situation where you are scared crapless, but you have to act like everything’s okay, because you don’t want your kid to freak out. Like there’s blood squirting out of their face. they’re just like, okay, that’s okay.

But it’s awesome! Here, just hold this!

That means it’s the car and we drive the speed limit to the ER. Like, you know, we all have these things where we have to like put on a face for whatever the reason is to act like what’s happening isn’t happening. And if you think about it, like take a moment, pause back to the last time you remember having to do that. And I’m willing to bet you’re going to be able to think about it was a lot. It was a lot. I was exhausted. I was tired afterwards. Imagine doing that 12.

to 20 hours a day. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (09:44.31)

And that’s situation of many of our kids too, because the way we can apply this to all types of parenting is that something I say often, kids don’t have a fully developed frontal lobe. They also don’t have the experience that we have as parents to know how to act in every social situation. So what is going on in their minds and their experience of life is dramatically different from ours. And I think a lot of times in like old school parenting,

it was just said that, you know, a parent says something kid has to listen without any regards to what is going on in the kids inner state. And that is how we can apply this double empathy problem, not only teaching our kids to have empathy for us and others, but also having empathy for them and what happens with them.

Every Monday here in no guilt mom land, we get on YouTube and we do a premiere of that week’s YouTube video. And we chat in the YouTube chat. It’s like a fun, fun time. So if you want to come 9am Pacific 12pm Eastern on the no guilt mom YouTube channel, come join us. But we were having a discussion about a video this past Monday. And in the video, it was all about control and what you can let go of.

Thank

And one of the things I said to let go of, was personal triggers wise, when your kids talk back.

Brie Tucker (11:09.108)

my God, that’s a hard one!

JoAnn Crohn (11:11.37)

It’s a hard one. But a lot of times as parents, think thinking in terms of the double empathy problem, we’re like, my gosh, our kids don’t have empathy for us. They’re learning to be really mean and rude people. They’re just like being so rude to us and talking back. And in it, I suggest to let it go and to wait until the emotions have cooled down. And one of the questions that came up is, aren’t you just letting your kid get away with bad behavior? And

This is where the double empathy problem can come in because yes, I admit in that circumstance, they did not have empathy for you and they treated you poorly. But what was going on with them that caused them to act in that way? Because people who are okay, people who are happy, they don’t usually retaliate. Yes.

By letting it go and by thinking like, okay, there’s something else going on because all kids are trying the best they can. And if they explode, if they’re rude to you, something has happened that they can no longer keep it inside. So this is where you could think of double empathy. We’re going to give you three situations right after this break, which are often misinterpreted when talking about kids.

And we’re going to show you a different way to look at them, which is going to really relax your frustrations and also improve your connection with your child. And we’re going to get into that right after this. So when Bri and I were discussing this episode, this is the part like we’re most excited about because these situations happen to everyone in like every parent I feel can relate to these situations. And this is a total new perspective.

Brie Tucker (12:56.192)

Yeah, and it’s not only like, can you relate, but I have the kind of brain where I have to see it. I have to apply it. Conceptual problems are hard for me to manage my way through and to figure out how to apply something. So yeah, I love it whenever we can do scenarios for people. So let’s get started with scenario number one, because every single one of us have been here. Every single one of us have been, you know, having our lovely time.

We are out doing our grocery shopping. We’ve got our kids with us and we thought we had everything prepped. We got snacks in the purse. We did everything right that we possibly could. And yet here it comes. The kid starts to have a meltdown for whatever the reason, whatever the reason.

JoAnn Crohn (13:43.00)

Maybe it’s like they want some candy that’s put right there by the checkout and you say no.

Brie Tucker (13:50.600)

Yeah, maybe they’re just done.

JoAnn Crohn (13:53.540)

Maybe they’re just done and they don’t want to go shopping anymore.

Brie Tucker (13:58.316)

Who knows? There’s a million reasons why.

JoAnn Crohn (14:03.100)

When my daughter was a toddler, I had an instance where I had a completely full grocery cart and she was melting down and not having it. And I had to leave the store. But pro tip, you can talk to an employee. They will put your grocery cart in the walk-in fridge and you can come back and get your groceries.

Brie Tucker (14:20.000)

I’m not surprised because again, it’s not like this is something that never happens. Like the deals from grocery store clerks, the things that people that work in a grocery store could share. think we could do a whole episode just on that. Let’s bring you into the scenario. So what is typically the first thing that you were thinking when your kid is melting down and or what is the first thing that perhaps somebody might be thinking as they’re walking by?

Brie Tucker (14:50.335)

and seeing this happen. They’re like, that kid.

JoAnn Crohn (14:58.000)

I’m just gonna say, what a spoiled brat. yeah, that’s probably the first thing like that comes to mind is what a spoiled brat.

would never act like that. My kid never did that.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And like you feel all this judgment and everything, which then of course amps up your anxiety as a parent.

Brie Tucker (15:12.500)

And then sometimes you start thinking that stuff that you never would think, right? Like you start running into, my child is a terrible misbehaving child right now. They’re being so manipulative because they really want that candy bar.

JoAnn Crohn (15:25.006)

I can’t let them get away with this. They can’t be manipulative like this. And you go down this whole rabbit hole of just assuming the worst. And so we want to give you a little different perspective because that’s the neurotypical interpretation of it. The neurodiverse little read of the situation is first of all, there could be some sensory overwhelm going on in that grocery store. Bright fluorescent lights. Very jarring to many people.

are

I know like when my husband comes into like our downstairs basement, if the lights overhead lights are on, he will immediately come and turn them all down because that gets to him. He won’t even like in his office at work. He has a floor lamp. He won’t turn on the fluorescent lights.

Brie Tucker (16:12.450)

It is better neurologically. say that the soft light is better than the fluorescent lights, but I digress. Let’s keep going. Another sensory overwhelm that can happen in the grocery store. And I’m wondering if you’ve ever noticed this, Joanne, when you go into some grocery stores, have you noticed a certain smell? They have a smell and they differ based on which one you’re going to. So like that’s another one too. I mean, that’s a hard one.

to manage to not deal with. like for people that have sensory issues, a smell that could be just the smell of the environment to one person is a noxious odor to them. And it can cause physical ailment, like they’re feeling nauseous, they’re feeling upset. It makes them angry. It makes them anxious. So that, all of the noise going on in the grocery store.

JoAnn Crohn (17:01.836)

The noise is a big one. The noise affected our family. My son was very noise adverse. So much so, we would walk into restaurants and we’d look down at him and he’s like, it’s too noisy in here. We’re like, okay, let’s go find someplace else because he just couldn’t handle it. And I have to tell you, if you have a child like that, honor that. Honor that in them. Honor that that is really hard for them. I found it a little bit annoying at the time. I’ll be truthful, but I knew.

that, you know, sensory overload is a really, really hard thing to deal with. I can tell you now as a almost 12 year old, my son can go into any environment and he can handle it fine for really limited periods. And he also has developed coping mechanisms with using headphones.

Brie Tucker (17:44.600)

There you go. I was gonna say there’s a lot of coping mechanisms that can help, but you need to be in that calm state, like you said, where you’re honoring what’s going on and you’re not trying to tell them that they’re wrong. You’re like, okay, let’s work through this. What can we do?

JoAnn Crohn (17:58.500)

Yes. So when you see it through that neurodiverse perspective, like you pave the way to help your kid actually cope with this environment in the future. Even if it doesn’t happen right then, I swear we always say here at Know Good Mom, we’re playing the long game. We’re in it for the long term.

So don’t think that if your kid is melting down right there, that they are horrible and manipulative and spoiled, when really it just might be a reaction to all the senses in the environment. And when you take them out of that situation and you talk with them later, they might be able to tell you, was just too noisy. I didn’t like the noise.

Brie Tucker (18:38.136)

Yeah, and as we go through each of these scenarios, we wanna make sure that, we’re not gonna repeat this every single time, but remember that we’re also saying that you are allowed to be frustrated. You’re allowed to be annoyed at it.

JoAnn Crohn (17:58.500)

It’s An  incredible inconvenience.

Brie Tucker (18:38.136)

It’s an incredible inconvenience, it’s frustrating. It’s not something that you can just do one little change and it’s 100 % better all the time across the

JoAnn Crohn (19:04.700)

And can I also say we were not offered the same leeway as kids?

Brie Tucker (19:09.450)

Yeah, I we were told to be quiet, down. My mom used to sometimes just leave us in the car while she went grocery shopping. And honestly, I was the youngest of three, and I would have loved to have gone grocery shopping with my mom instead. Instead, I had to sit in the car and my sisters would either beat up on me or do something crappy to me for the whole time she was. And then they’d be like, don’t you dare say a word to mom when she gets in the car. So we laugh about it now, but my point being is…

Brie Tucker (19:38.338)

Like you just said, we weren’t given necessarily on a large scale that same leeway. And because of that, a lot of us have stressed that anxiety and people pleasing tendencies that are not good for us. So it’s okay. Give yourself that internal hug that this is hard. This is hard. And I’m pissed off at the situation. And you certainly can be, you certainly can be. So scenario number two.

JoAnn Crohn (20:06.230)

Oh this is one that happens a lot for us. And I could totally identify with it from when I was a kid, but the child seems uninterested during family gatherings. Like they don’t want to talk to anyone. They don’t want to say hi to anyone. They don’t want to hug anyone. And you might look at them and be like, my gosh, they’re being so rude and they’re being anti-social. And I need to teach my kid how to be more social.

Brie Tucker (20:29.300)

Exactly. And again, like we’re going to go through all the different, we want you to see there the possible other perspectives that are happening in this scenario. like what are some things Joanne that that you like looking at it from a neurodivergent reality, what could be going on?

JoAnn Crohn (20:47.100)

So social situations take a lot of work, especially if you are neurodiverse, because you might have a hard time reading people, your kids might have a hard time reading people. It’s a very scary, unpredictable situation too, because it’s not like you can go in and control what everyone says and how everyone reacts to you. So when you’re faced with that sort of anxiety, you avoid it.

Like that is a coping mechanism right there, avoidance. So your kids might be avoiding those interactions because of all of this social processing that they have to do. Another thing, and this is something that I have a lot of trouble with, is the difficulty filtering conversations. I really have a hard time in loud environments where I have to be focusing on someone.

JoAnn Crohn (21:37.046)

and there’s all these other conversations going on around me. I yeah, yeah. My daughter makes fun of me and says like, can’t hear again. She doesn’t have a fully developed frontal lobe. She doesn’t have a fully developed frontal lobe. Because it’s not that I can’t hear her. It’s that I am hearing that conversation over there at that other table. And I am picking up on what they said. And that conversation has pulled me.

from this conversation unbeknownst to me, not any free will on my part because I have trouble filtering the conversations.

Brie Tucker (22:11.330)

To piggyback on that, I know I’m going to mess up the name, but auditory processing disorder, that is very common with people that have ADHD. And those are the people that like you say something to them and they go, what? And then as you’re repeating it to them, they go, they answer you. Or like in my case, I have learned over the past few years, I have to constantly be like, say that one more time. Cause I know what I heard isn’t right.

Because like you’ll you’ll either it comes out all gerbal to them like all garbled They can’t quite figure out what you said and then it takes like a few seconds like yeah Sometimes it could take 10 seconds and that 10 seconds is a long time in a two-way conversation, right? And then you see somebody getting mad at you Yeah, you’ll see them get mad at you and then they’re frustrated and then you’re like, okay I don’t want to be in this conversation anymore because I’m embarrassed and I can’t make my brain

It is. It is.

Brie Tucker (23:11.17)

hear what they’re saying in a better way. yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (23:15.250)

It’s a hard thing. It’s funny because my dad actually, I’m pretty sure he has the auditory processing as well. The same problems I do. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and he has hearing aids. And he’s like, my mom’s like, Jim, where are your hearing aids? And he’s like, the hearing aids don’t help me because it’s not the hearing. It is the auditory processing that’s the problem. And it’s so funny because he tells me sometimes he’s like, you know, I’m just listening to people and it’s like,

There are

are words coming out of their mouth, but they don’t make sense to me. And I’m like, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I get that way too.

Brie Tucker (23:53.500)

I have had had because I again like my background being an early childhood and part of what I did I would do newborn hearing follow-ups for people that missed their appointments at the hospital. So I have like no aversion to getting my hearing tested. I would test my own hearing all the time but I’ve actually gone in and had my hearing tested four times in my adult life and every time it comes back comes back spectacular. And as someone who deals with me on a regular basis do you not think that’s a little bit of BS? You’re like what?

Brie Tucker (24:22.19)

Hell, Brie, you won’t understand what I’m But right?

JoAnn Crohn (24:25.250)

NOOO I know what’s going on.

Brie Tucker (24:27.000)

the only thing that makes sense now, but I got to tell you, like that drove my ex husband freaking crazy. He was constantly like, have hearing issues. And I’m like, and I would also, because I didn’t know what it was, was like, yeah, I guess I do. I don’t understand why I can’t understand anyone. So yeah, yeah, that, that can be a big, big thing. And I think it is important to talk to your kids. If you’re seeing that they are uncomfortable in family gatherings, get down to it. Not in the moment. Okay. Because they’re in that moment where they’re like trying to

be back from everybody, they’re not going to be in a state where they can easily think through things and not feel like they’re being judged or pressured or upsetting you or upsetting other people that they care about. So talking to them, you know, digging down deeper, if it’s really that they’re like addicted to their phones and that’s literally, I just wanted to play Candy Crush. couldn’t stand talking to anybody because I got to get this next level in Candy Crush. That’s a different scenario.

Brie Tucker (25:25.902)

That’s why I’m saying like you have to talk to them about it, but not in the moment

JoAnn Crohn (25:31.000)

Not in the moment. You have to let the emotions go. mean, and give them some leeway. Like, I’ve let my kids not attend some family gatherings because they told me, because we had these discussions, they’re like, I just can’t handle it right now with all the other things going on. And I’m like, totally get that. You take care of you. It’ll be all OK. So show them that understanding. And if you need to talk to your kids, you could just be like, hey, I listening to this podcast and I heard them tell this story about they can’t hear. Like, have you ever experienced that?

Brie Tucker (26:00.302)

Or how family gatherings can be a little bit overwhelming. Is that why you like to go sit in the corner and not talk to anybody?

JoAnn Crohn (26:06.300)

Yes, yeah, exactly. Well, after this break, we are going to tell you the last scenario, which is when kids ignore your instructions or requests. And we’re going to get into it right after this. Okay, so, Brie, we’ve talked about kids having meltdowns in public spaces. We’ve talked about kids uninterested in family gatherings. Let’s talk about the situation where they seem to ignore you and they seem to ignore your instructions or

requests.

Brie Tucker (26:37.71)

i hate this scenario because I can tell you, even though I have years and years of working in this field, and I feel like I’m pretty good at being aware and empathetic to what’s going on. This one is my kryptonite. This is the one that I lose my shiznit with the quickest. This is the one that my empathy goes from a level 10 to a level zero. you’re telling yourself

Brie Tucker (27:06.348)

Your child is deliberately not listening. They are trying to piss you off. are trying to do this in a mean way towards you. But that’s not always the case.

JoAnn Crohn (27:18.650)

There  is also like, this ties into what we were just talking about too, this different processing of verbal information and this need for concrete communication. I mean, I was just told by one of my kids over our trip where my whole travel style is, we’ll get there. We’ll find something to do. We’ll like look it up on Google Maps and we’ll find something. It’ll be all good. Yes. Yes. Yes.

There.

Brie Tucker (27:45.422)

That’s style, by the way.

JoAnn Crohn (27:48.800)

I love it too. And one of my kids does not. Yeah. They like certainty. They like to be able to plan where they are and what they’re going to do. And that helps them navigate the situation. And so in terms of that, that is them asking me to provide them with concrete information. Now, no, like your situation, if you’re just first hearing about, you know, double empathy,

and the different communication styles. Know that that doesn’t happen right away in your house. Like, time. Yeah, your kids will not come to you and tell them what they need. But this is what you can look forward to by starting having these discussions. Now they will tell you what they need. I know with me, with instructions or requests, I have to like write them down immediately, else they will go out of my mind. I am a visual person. If it is not on the page, I will forget what was said.

Your kids will need

Brie Tucker (28:46.818)

Yeah, I’m a very in the moment person. I, yeah, I can change things on a whim for sure. And you know, what’s also interesting, I really have to think about this. I wonder why I don’t give my kids the same leeway that I was just saying about the whole not being able to process things and not being able to hear what’s being said. I’m having an introspective moment here on Mike about this, that I need to be more thoughtful of that. If I’m struggling with this.

Chances are they are. And you know what? took me to, was in my forties to figure it out. So of course they wouldn’t know what was happening now. But I also, I also have a kid that you have a great example of how you’ve had to deal with this child. Where sometimes like you said, like you’re having a conversation with them and they don’t necessarily understand what is being said. Right? I’m thinking about Disneyland.

okay. upset about a ride. Right? Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (29:49.150)

It’s like learning to read the social cues in the situation, or like assuming the worst of something, like assuming that somebody has mal intent or doesn’t want the best for you and it wants to harm you or hurt you.

Brie Tucker (30:04.300)

So you’re automatically on the defensive right away. And so like sometimes too, when your kid is ignoring that request, or whatever it is that you have said to them, it might not be because they are mad or upset, or even necessarily on the defensive, maybe they are on the defensive, whatever. But chances are good, they’re really not taking in what’s being said for one reason or another. And I have one of those kids, I have a kid that is

Brie Tucker (30:31.342)

constantly on the defensive. So I have to constantly have that kiddo say things back to us. So we know that they understood what we’re saying. And luckily for us, that kiddo is happy to say, well, you’re telling me. And I’m like, no, no, I promise you those words did not come out my mouth and those thoughts are not in my head.

JoAnn Crohn (30:49.900)

It helps. That’s a great strategy because then you get to see exactly what’s in your child’s mind and how they’re processing things.

Brie Tucker (30:57.900)

what story they’re going, they’re telling themselves.

JoAnn Crohn (30:49.900)

What story. Yeah, because a lot of this going from the double empathy perspective is that you just adjust your communication styles to fit the needs of each child, which is something that I think a lot of us do anyways, we treat our kids different because they’re different people. They need different things from us. Just as your child is right now heading out the door and you’re like, Hi.

Brie Tucker (31:21.950)

I’m waving to my son as he leaves for school.

JoAnn Crohn (31:23.918)

But I think along these lines, I also want to address the child who is accused of not paying attention during class because their eyes are not focused on the teacher or it looks like they’re doing something else. A lot of times these kids, they’re not like just listening the way we think listening looks like. Listening could be that they need to doodle on their paper.

to adequately hear the information. It was so funny because I talk about, am so scarred for my evaluations as a teacher from principal coming into my class and counting the number of kids who are engaged and then giving me a percentage of how many were engaged during that time. It’s an impossible thing to see actual engagement. It wasn’t her fault, it was a district mandate.

Brie Tucker (32:13.200)

Yeah, the whole concept is what frustrates me.

The whole concept.

That if you’re not sitting like this, you know, back straight, eyes open, engaged, look on your face, looking forward at the teacher. Then that means that you’re, if you’re not doing that, then you’re not engaged.

JoAnn Crohn (32:20.556)

Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (32:31.116)

It was so interesting though, because, I just thought of this correlation right now. I was in district trainings with her and I would sit next to her and she was doodling on her notebook the entire time in district trainings. And I assumed that she was listening, but she needed that doodling to stay focused and stay attention. I know you’ve talked about something like clicking your pen. You need to click your pen to stay focused.

Brie Tucker (32:537.600)

Okay, I actually have a hilarious story I’m gonna add in here for you guys. My husband now, Miguel, I’ve talked about how I met him many, many, many, many moons ago. We worked together in the early intervention field. We would go to a lot of state meetings together, and you know me. I clicked my pen, I can’t sit still for more than like five minutes. That’s as long as my attention span can go without bodily movement. And so at these state meetings, a lot of times they would go all day. We got one break to go for lunch, and that was it.

JoAnn Crohn (32:27.800)

Which is like hell for an ADHD-er, by the way.

Brie Tucker (32:29.650)

my god, right? And we all work with special needs and early intervention. So a lot of us have little quirks about us. Yes. So at least the state office would put stuff at the tables. And I would always look for Miguel back in those meetings, because he was like me, and he would kind of like doodle and do things. And so we would sit next to each other. And we would like make little things out of putty and show it to each other and everything. Like, it was just the only other person that I could like

have that relationship with and still have us getting the information that we needed.

Brie Tucker (34:08.31)

God never do it. Yeah

JoAnn Crohn (34:12.700)

Hopefully through our discussion today, you found some things that you might see in your own kids. You might have some ideas now on how you could either adapt to their communication styles, have a little more empathy for their situation. And because of this empathy, my gosh, your patience is going to skyrocket when you start thinking of these things, because you no longer think that it’s them being manipulative or rude. They are just trying to deal the best with what they have to work with.

Yeah, yeah.

So this connection with your kids, it is a two-way street. It’s not you failing your kids. It’s not your kids failing to understand you. You are both working to understand each other. So with that, remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you and we’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker (35:04.00)

Thanks for stopping by.