Podcast Episode 296: How to Help Kids Fight Sexism: Raising Strong Daughters in a World That Still Doesn’t Get It Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: We’ve got to go beyond girl power, which is wonderful for building like a can do attitude, but it doesn’t really address the unsavory or unfair experiences that girls encounter every day.

JoAnn Crohn: Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host, JoAnn Crohn, joined here by the lovely Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker: Why, hello, hello, everybody. How are you?

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, we have another Jo-Ann on the podcast today, everybody.

Brie Tucker: You people read the transcripts, they are going to be so confused.

JoAnn Crohn: They’re going to be so

Brie Tucker: one Jo-Ann has a hyphen, one JoAnn does not.

JoAnn Crohn: Yes, yes, but it is such a good, good episode today, especially if you feel like there’s these underlying sexism currents in society, which by the way, if you haven’t felt them, they are there, Our guest today is Jo-Ann Finkelstein, who is a clinical psychologist and the author of the newly released book, Sexism and Sensibility, Raising Empowered Resilient Girls in the Modern World.

Her main focus is to help parents see that gender bias and sexism are everywhere and have deeply negative effects on their children. On our daughter’s sense of self and self esteem, but with the right tools, we can do something about it. She’s a mom to two teenagers. And in this episode, we dig into dress codes. We dig into how people call Kamala by her first name and not her last name. It’s really, really interesting. And we hope that you enjoy it. So now on with the show.

Jo-Ann, we’re so happy to have you on the podcast today. This is our second time recording because of internet issues, which we’ve experienced before, so I already feel like I know

Brie Tucker: Oh yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: quite well from having to go through all that and

Brie Tucker: sacrificed a goat this morning to the internet god, so we should be good.

JoAnn Crohn: sacrifice a goat, poor goat.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Well, I’m so glad to be on anything called No Guilt because that is my mantra throughout writing that book, that no guilt, all suggestions, all possibilities, all process.

Brie Tucker: Right?

JoAnn Crohn: Like, it’s so interesting because I am very much interested in the way sexism is Inherent in our society, the unconscious biases in particular. And it’s funny because I, I’ll just start with a little story with my daughter. I was teaching her to drive and she was saying like I yell at her and like her dad doesn’t yell at her. I don’t yell at her. By the way, I lower my voice. I speak softly and. I feel like my husband does the same thing. And so I said to her, well, maybe it’s just because I’m a female voice and your dad has a male voice. And she’s like, mom, not everything’s about feminism. I’m

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Welcome to my world.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah.

Brie Tucker: Right? anything with a daughter, like, they’re, they’re, I just feel like sometimes don’t see what we’re trying to help support. But I also am on JoAnn’s side on the whole not yelling. My husband gets that same crap because he’s a soft spoken person and the kids just seem to think that if you even like over articulate something that you’re yelling. Again, tell your daughter to come hang out with me.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: do you know how many times I said, I am not yelling, I am being firm?

JoAnn Crohn: Yes. I want to know your viewpoint on that, Jo-Ann. Like with that whole scenario, do you think that could have been an issue in there of how she perceived my voice versus how she perceived my husband’s voice or was I like totally off base?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Absolutely. I mean, especially if you have somebody like your husband who’s saying, Mom wasn’t yelling. She was just talking firmly or she was just talking low. Like there is something about how women’s voices, if they’re firm or they’re assertive, get translated as aggressive.

Brie Tucker: Right?

JoAnn Crohn: is crazy! It’s so crazy to me. And your book, Sexism and Sensibility, you starting it out, I feel like I had the same kind of reactions as a kid. You describe where you got a piece of mail and like you found a piece of mail addressed to your mother and she was like, Mrs. and then your father’s name.

And just this irate, reaction. It’s crazy. To it, and I have that reaction as well. And I, I wanted to know, like, have you always been interested in this issue about how sexism impacts society? Like, can you string it back to your childhood like that? Or did some other event

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I can absolutely string it back to my childhood. I mean, you know, I, conceptually it didn’t come to me till later, but you know, I grew up with three brothers and, a daily dose of gender bias. And my parents were very loving. They are very loving, but they had some really definite ideas about femininity that felt really limiting to me.

And, you know, one example that my, I was just with my family and they can’t believe it didn’t make it into the book, but it’s become family lore, is that I asked for a hockey stick for my birthday. We grew up in Montreal with Les Canadiens and my brothers all had hockey sticks and I wanted a hockey stick. So they obliged. The problem was, it was pink.

JoAnn Crohn: course I knew it was coming. Yeah. Yeah.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: you know, when I would push back or complain that we were treated differently, they would say that it wasn’t happening or I was being too sensitive or dramatic,

Brie Tucker: Oh, I hate that

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Classic comment. Yeah. Classic comments that girls and women get a lot. And so it wasn’t, you know, I kind of, tried to swallow my feelings to avoid criticism. Until I wrote a paper in my master’s program for a developmental psychology class where I said, like, when I felt demeaned, People would say I was overreacting and the professor scribbled in the margins, that’s what people say to talk girls out of their feelings. And it was such a validating moment for me. And I hope it will be for all your listeners.

JoAnn Crohn: Yes. Yes. That’s what people say to talk girls out of their feelings.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: yes, and so fast forward to becoming a psychologist and sitting with girls and women for the last 24 plus years, right? There was so much evidence that it wasn’t just me who was impacted by gender bias and sexism, right? I’ve witnessed how harmful it is to my patient’s sense of self and their sense of, you know, Potential, right? They’re like seemingly tiny psychological paper cuts that accumulate and become like these festering wounds of self doubt.

Brie Tucker: Yes! That is so well put!

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: so I wrote this book cause I was like, enough.

JoAnn Crohn: Oh my gosh. I could remember things in my childhood. Like I’m the oldest of two girls. And my dad had a lot of influences from his mother and not in the best way. Like my grandma would say things to my mom, like, Oh, you should have put JoAnn in smaller shoes because her feet are too big now.

And doesn’t don’t fit into like, you know, those issues of femininity. And so. Yeah. So. I think they were worried. I was turning too much, like into a masculine, I don’t know, tomboyish. I’m not even sure what the thought process was that my dad made a rule that to middle school, I had to wear a dress once a week to middle school. And Oh yeah. I

Brie Tucker: In the, In the, 80s, 90s?! That’s

JoAnn Crohn: yeah, this was 92. It was 92. And I remember having him drop me off at the corner of the middle school and I’m like, you’re late to work. Just let me walk in. I really wanted that independence. I wanted everything. And so I would walk a mile to the middle school and I had it all figured out. I wore a sweatshirt over my dress. And so I tucked up the dress into the sweatshirt. And so I just had my leggings and a sweatshirt to

Brie Tucker: is very 90s fashion, by the way.

JoAnn Crohn: fashion. One day he drove by to check on me, walking to make sure I was okay. And he saw what I did and I got into trouble. for that. But I mean, those kinds of experiences really stick with you and you either know at the time that, hey, this is wrong or it gets embedded into, I need to look a certain way to be accepted by everybody around me. So like in terms of dress when it comes to women and sexism, I mean, what have you found in there that sexism is still like? Part of our society.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I mean, that’s such a big one. First of all, it’s, you know, all the dress coding that goes on in schools is a big one and a big problem. And actually, when you were talking, you reminded me of a story in the book about, you know, my friend, Julie’s daughter, who was called into the school office and told she was dressing too provocatively and that she had to come in every day for two weeks to get her outfit approved.

Right? But here’s the right. But her mother also admitted. Kind of sheepishly, like she found her dressing a little trashy and, you know, was really torn because, and so what the daughter would do is she would go to the office, present herself, get approved, and then go, it was a giant school, and then go into the bathroom and change into what she wanted to wear and her mother was right and her mother was Her mother was stuck between you go girl, like you’re listening to what you want to do You’re proud of your body and you know, she was she was proud of this developing body She had this great body, you know sort of traditionally great body and the other like stuck between that and

Don’t you see that you’re being looked at through the male gaze? Don’t you see that, you know, like I once said to my daughter, a cigar is just a cigar, but a crop top dieting and Brazilian wax are never as simple as free choice. And so that’s where parents are always stuck. We want to give our daughters free choice, but we want to keep them safe and we want them to be good cultural critics so that they know that they are being really influenced by what the culture expects of them. Okay.

JoAnn Crohn: a bit more right after this break. So Jo-Ann, I feel like dress codes are a way that we really see sexism still very prevalent in our society. And in terms of my own experience with it, seeing my daughter I mean, she was called into the office so many times because of the length of her skirt. When she’s really tall and could not find skirts that looked cute and reached down to her knees. how are we as parents, how do we go and stand up for our daughters when it’s these archaic dress codes that are in effect? Like, because it’s you against the school and you feel so unprepared to deal with

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Right. Well, bingo. Why I wrote my book because I want parents to be prepared, like to have this stuff in their back pocket. I mean, for one, the onus should not be on girls to control male behavior

Brie Tucker: Thank you.

JoAnn Crohn: Ah, yes!

Brie Tucker: You, hallelujah. I’m good. Thank you. Thank you. Mm-Hmm?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: And the biggest one is that there’s no proven relationship between clothing and assault, right? So they say they’re protecting girls, But they’re not protecting girls, right? Unfortunately, girls get harassed and assaulted in everything from, you know, bikinis to burkas. So you, it’s not fair to shame a girl for what she’s wearing. It’s not, it’s not fair to shame a girl, but you know,

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. But I even feel like it’s coded now in schools with dress coding. Like they won’t tell you that it’s to protect male behavior. The reason they give it’s because you’re in a professional learning environment and it’s not professional. when schools come at it from that viewpoint, what do you suggest we do as parents? Because obviously you know, that’s not the thing that’s underlying it.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I think you get them to say what they really mean. So you say, tell me what you mean by unprofessional.

Brie Tucker: Okay.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Well, her skirt’s too short. Well, what does that mean to you? Why is that unprofessional? Well, it shows her knees. Hmm. what’s up with knees? Well, they’re sexual. What? You know, you’re,

JoAnn Crohn: Howard is sexual?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: right. And so they’ll

Brie Tucker: knees.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: there’s, there’s, well, right. I mean, that’s why you can’t, you have to have your shoulders covered, right, because,

Brie Tucker: Yeah. I worked at one place one time and this is like just cracking me up. I was working for a, public charter here in the Phoenix area that had a very strict dress code due to  religious purposes. And I remember getting dress coded on my first day of work because I had a, high turtleneck, but sleeveless shirt with like black pants and open toed sandals because it was, you know, 110 degrees. And I got dress coded because I was showing those naughty toes

JoAnn Crohn: Oh yeah, those toes.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: How many toes, shoulders, and knees would it take to smash the patriarchy? Like if, if those, if they’re so distracting, it should.

Brie Tucker: Yes! Right?

JoAnn Crohn: Oh

Brie Tucker: Like, it’s

JoAnn Crohn: go out with toes and knees all the time? it’s a hard thing to fight against because the people who are making the rules like cloak them and these other reasons for the rules, the professional stuff. And I love your suggestion about getting them to tell you what they actually mean. And it’s so Through like this questioning behavior. It actually reminds you the strategy that you came out with. It’s something that Adam Grant talked about with his group in his books. It’s like, and Ned also talked about it. I can’t remember what it’s called, but maybe you remember. It’s like motivated or like, You basically ask questions until the real thing comes out, until you find a little sliver of what they think. What is that called, Jo-Ann? Do you know, do you know what the word is

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I don’t, I know that

JoAnn Crohn: It’s like on the tip of my tongue. Yes.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: But what,

JoAnn Crohn: questioning or something like that. Yeah. I

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: what you’re getting them to do is to recognize that they’re sexualizing your daughter.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. And that’s exactly.

Brie Tucker: Okay. So here’s a bit of an in depth question. the way that we’re talking about this in terms of like a school type dress code, right? Do you think that they truly realize that they are sexualizing the girls within their dress? Or do you think that they don’t see it that way?

And that once that realization comes out, once you push the questioning and they get to that final part of that, like, well, because it’s distracting because it’s making people think about sex, showing the knees.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: it’s a, it’s hard to, you know, so much of this stuff is unconscious and we just have such rigid ideas of what femininity, how femininity should present. And so I think. some people, it might be unconscious. I think for others, they’re consciously new way to say it because too many women have come forward and said, like, this is not okay.

Don’t blame girls for other people’s reactions for your own reaction. I mean, there’s that story in the book of the Dean, right, who like, humiliated by forcing this girl to stand up and move around to judge whether her breasts are looked appropriate because he didn’t, because she wasn’t wearing a bra.

JoAnn Crohn: That’s horrible, it’s horrible, the stuff that they put girls through, and it’s no wonder we have all this self doubt and we can’t like stand up for ourselves almost, like we feel even bad for standing up because we feel like we’re going to be in the wrong in some way. And you mentioned it at the beginning of the interview how it’s all these little micro aggressions against women that are ingrained in us, but I also think that bringing them I’m out.

Into the open so that people are cognizant of what they’re doing could help, fight back against it. So in your opinion, like, how can parents make a dent in this gender bias and sexism that we, that we really see and experience in the world? 

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: what they can do is help their daughters be less likely to internalize the gender bias and sexism by helping kids make sense of those subtle chronic cumulative indignities that girls experience and kind of start to believe are normal, right?

They can put language around what. Girls are experiencing and, and they can do that from a young age so that the girls will be able to be more critical of the culture that they’re growing up in. They’ll understand that the messages that they get that they’re weak.

Inferior, irrational, too loud, shallow, overly emotional, incapable of leadership, I could go on. Like, aren’t there personal failures, but a failure of the system. So they’re not going to necessarily make the sexism in the world stop, but they can help girls interpret it. And the other thing they, can do is they can start to notice their own biases. which they are for sure you know, even the most progressive of us are bringing them into our homes.

Brie Tucker: Yeah. And consciously a lot of times, like we don’t even realize, right. Oh,

JoAnn Crohn: am realizing all the phrases that I have, like, that are just part of my stock vocabulary that are actually very sexist. things that I think that I should say, like the whole, Oh, I don’t want to be such a girl about it. Like when I’m talking about like fighting against, I had a big migraine and I’m like, I feel really weak and I’m not going to work out today, but I’m not doing it because I’m acting like a girl. Wait a minute. What is this? It just comes out. Yeah,

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: and weak became synonymous, all that conditioning over the many, many years, you know?

JoAnn Crohn: there’s so much conditioning and now that we see like, especially a woman running for the presidency here in the U. S., I’m seeing it come out even more and I want to talk a little bit more about those things that we’re seeing come out sexism wise right after this. So we have Kamala Harris now running for president and this is airing in September. So who knows what went down between now, August 16th, and then, we’ll see. Probably a lot, but there’s a few things that I’m seeing come out that are really interesting issues to address.

And one is, is kind of in depth out of left field. So I’m going to preface it with this, but I saw a post yesterday about a woman who supports Kamala and she was wearing a shirt that said Harris on the front. And she’s like, why don’t we call female candidates By their last names, like we do men. And then she listed like all of the men’s last names that are used.

And then all of the prominent female politicians, we use their first names. And at first I’m like, yes, you have a point. But on the other hand, going back to your story about seeing your mom’s name addressed as Mrs. And then her husband’s name, a lot of the time, our last names are associated with a man’s name and our first names sometimes are the way that we take the control and ownership back So what are your thoughts on this first name versus last names being used in our society for women?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I mean, it’s interesting because with Kamala, you know, and see I’m using her first name we’ve,

Brie Tucker: But she’s also said to, I will say that, like, she’s been like, I want to go, I want to be addressed as Kamala.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I see. I didn’t even know that. But I think there’s something more personable About women, like we feel more of a connection in a way. So I think there is that part of it, but I do think there’s the condescending piece because even if it’s not, even if we’re totally for Kamala and, Feminist and woman, you know, there’s a way that it decredentializes who they are.

It was like the whole thing that was in the wall street journal about Joe Biden’s wife, Jill Biden, that she shouldn’t have doctor with her name because she’s not an MD, she’s a PhD. and, so I think it’s along those lines where it sounds less serious, more kid like to use. A first name. And so I think we all just sort of unconsciously refer to women as Hillary and Kamala and, you know, Trump and Biden. And so there’s definitely something

JoAnn Crohn: There’s something there It is really interesting how women are portrayed in the press. Like just today there was a article that came out on Tim Waltz’s wife from the New York Times, and the headline was Waltz’s Wife, ultra competent partner. And I’m like ultra competent. You’re describing a woman as alter. Of course she is. Of course he’s ultra confident because every woman is

Brie Tucker: a shocker. She knows how to do things. Sorry.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: No,

JoAnn Crohn: it’s

Brie Tucker: Right? That’s what goes through your head with something like that. Like, they’re saying that, they would expect her to. Be incompetent. So because she is competent,

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: well, I will say I thought you were going to say it’s, it was going to be something about her like hair or dress. So I’m a little relieved that it was

ultra competent, but I, but I totally get it. It’s like overcompensating or it’s like this, right. Shocker that because she’s a woman, we need to point out that she’s competent.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, it’s interesting because I haven’t seen a lot of remarks about Kamala’s, wardrobe in the press very much. Not as much as I would expect to see from this society.

Brie Tucker: I’m hoping

they learn their lesson. Cause I feel like back when, we had the election back in 2016, everybody had something to say about Hillary Clinton’s wardrobe. and so hopefully they’ve learned their lesson, but I doubt it. I mean, we don’t learn lessons around here,

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: do think the media might be trying to steer away from that, but I still see it on social media and

JoAnn Crohn: Oh,

Brie Tucker: What do you see out of curiosity? Like in terms of, of judging women and higher ups, like again, we’re using Kamala Harris as an, example, but it could just be in general, any woman of like a higher power. How do we fight back against this that we still see like so prevalent everywhere judging

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: it’s a perfect well, you know, it actually it like makes a huge difference, right? Because when women have the audacity to put themselves in the public eye, they are there. critiqued limb by limb, clothing piece by clothing piece, right? Laugh by laugh. And it’s a really great way to intervene with your daughters or with all your kids and say, look at that.

Nobody said a thing about his wardrobe, but look how they’re talking about her wardrobe. Right. So it’s like all of these teachable moments present themselves. now that more and more women are in the public eye. But what I was gonna say is it makes a really big difference to. Do that. And to also recognize with your daughters that it’s changing because girls who see women criticized say they’re much less likely to go into politics.

JoAnn Crohn: Mm

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Right? So it’s the, it’s,

Brie Tucker: Interesting.

JoAnn Crohn: I would imagine that’s so.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: but at the same time, if they see representation, like the whole representation matter is borne out in the research because if they see it, they can be it. And then there’s, they’re more likely to say that they want to do it. So it’s a matter of how much the person they’re seeing is being critiqued.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, it’s pretty interesting too, because there are some statistics that went out very recently where there’s not many members of Congress who are working parents who actually have young kids at home who are moms with the young kids, like the women who are there, their kids are either older or out of the house or they haven’t had children. And

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: ladies.

JoAnn Crohn: they’re, they’re cat ladies.

Brie Tucker: That you said that? Oh,

JoAnn Crohn: so much, Vance, for that one. But yeah, I would love to be a cat lady. That sounds great. But it’s interesting because we’re reading right now in our balance membership, the book Charlotte Walsh likes to win by author Joe Piazza. I don’t know if you’re familiar with her, but yeah, she wrote this

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I have her new book.

JoAnn Crohn: Oh yeah, it’s awesome as well. She’s actually coming to our book club, by the way, where we know her. She’s going to get, yes, In her book she has this candidate woman who’s running for a Senate office and. This woman has a two five year old twins and a two year old daughter, all girls, and these girls are like mercilessly picked apart by the media because children become an extension of their mothers.

Like, children are off limits when their dads are running for public office, but oh my gosh, the moms are running, those kids are out. So I could see how it’s really hard to get representation in politics when you have young children because you know that they’re going to be brought into the mix if you’re a woman. And it’s like, I don’t know the answer to that or even the question I’m asking. I just want to be like, Jo-Ann, this isn’t fair!

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Well, and their mothering is going to be questioned and scrutinized and it’s brutal. It’s really brutal.

JoAnn Crohn: And it’s like the only thing we can do really is just I think notice it and dissect it for what it is and that men do not get the same treatment as women do.

Brie Tucker: So I’m curious, the parent that has a son and a daughter, and I know that they get a lot of, more traditional gender role rhetoric, from their other household that they’re in. What are things that I can do? As their parent to kind of help cut through the sexism thought process and to undermine sexism and to help them have more critical thinking skills in this area.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Yeah, I mean Like I was saying, I think that capitalizing on all the teachable moments that are out there is really helpful. I mean, don’t capitalize on all of them because they will tune you out pretty quick, but pick your battles and then just, make sure what you’re doing at home isn’t as gender split as it might be in the other home, right?

So maybe You’re more likely to ask her brother to carry the groceries and take out the trash. Maybe it’s that she’s interrupted more than her brother and mom is interrupted more than dad because statistically speaking, if there is a man in the house, if there is a boy in the house that is probably going on, right?

Maybe you’re focusing on her appearance and clothes and tend to have conversations about I don’t know politics or world events with your son, right? So what we have to do is

Brie Tucker: Being conscious

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: conscious and and right. Reading up on how they tend to show up in a home and then you know, take responsibility, like you can just change it, which is fabulous too, but You can also take responsibility, like actually a woman wrote me, I need to remember what she said, but she wrote me a letter not long ago after reading one of my newsletters, right?

And she realized that she was having trouble letting her daughter have strong feelings and strong opinions. Even though her son was the more outspoken one and often the more critical one.

Brie Tucker: Mm

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: So after reading the newsletter, she went to the daughter and now I’m sort of getting chills because it’s just like, God, we could all have used this growing up.

I think she went to her daughter and said, like, I realized this is what I’ve been doing. And her daughter started to cry because she knew something was off and she would say, mom, you never listened to me, but she couldn’t quite figure out what was going on. And when her mother said it, it was like, yes, every time, you know, I’m growing up now and I’m starting to have like feelings of my own and ideas of my own and you shut them down.

And it’s like, you know, so she wrote to sort of thank me and say, it’s great. made such a huge difference in my relationship. And I was like,

JoAnn Crohn: it’s the validation. The validation means everything when you get it from somebody and you’re like, Oh my gosh, yes. This is exactly it. You get it. You absolutely get it.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: and she never would have thought she was treating them differently. Right.

JoAnn Crohn: all of these unconscious things that we have going on that once we realize are there, we can at least bring them to the forefront so that we could start working on them so that they don’t have as much of an impact on our lives. Which is, it makes an amazing difference. what’s coming up for you, Jo-Ann, that you’re really excited about?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Well, right now I’m excited about this book. It’s taking up all of my time and energy and thought process. And I’m so passionate about getting this message out because I really, really, really think that parents can make a dent in sexism on a micro level. I mean, the macro level is important too, but.

We’ve got to go beyond girl power, which is wonderful for building like a can do attitude, but it doesn’t really address the unsavory or unfair experiences that girls encounter every day. So I think that I’m just excited that this is finally going to be out in the world and I’m going to get to talk about it and answer questions and do readings.

And yeah,

JoAnn Crohn: That is exciting. That’s a super exciting thing. So go out, get sexism and sensibility, raising empowered, resilient girls in the modern world. And Jo-Ann, it’s been wonderful having you here and we’ll talk to you later.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein: it’s been such a pleasure.

Brie Tucker: So first of all, let me just say that I think that this book is going to make a huge impact. So if you haven’t gotten this book, we have a link in the show notes. Definitely get it because having kids in general, this is our opportunity to make things better for the future. So there’s that. But the other thing I wanted to throw in here, we talked about names.

And by going by, like you just said, in the very beginning, as you tease the episode and the episode we talked about how like Kamala Harris Hillary Clinton, when they were running for office, everybody called them by their first names and whether or not that gives them power takes away power as someone been divorced.

I feel like that last name. does give a lot of power. But to me, it’s in a negative way for me. And I, and you brought this up in the episode and I didn’t say much at that time, but this is what I wanted to say was I feel like I own my name. My first name is me. That is me to a T

JoAnn Crohn: It’s never changed.

Brie Tucker: yeah. Right. And that last name that I does express me in certain points in my life, but that is not a core. I truly love my name Brie. I think it’s a unique name, especially for somebody my age, and I think that it kind of like articulates my personality, whereas my last name doesn’t. And like you said, it’s changed. And I feel like that was almost limiting. My last name. It’s very limiting. I feel power with my first name.

JoAnn Crohn: I remember when I became a teacher, we had a principal who was older than me, like by 20, 30 years. And she was insistent. Everybody be called, you know, Mrs. Crow and Mrs. That. And like, I, I fight against that. I fight against it so much. There’s actually another summit I do where all of the instructors are referred to by their last names and like, Mrs.

This and Mr. That as a show of respect. And I. Have never felt it as a show of respect. I feel like it is something that is not me. Like I am not Mrs. Crohn. I am JoAnn. And when you call me JoAnn, it’s a great thing. Like I, it’s the same thing I did with my daughter’s friends. Like I am not. Camden’s mom.

I’m not like, I will not answer to that. I will answer to Miss JoAnn. That’s what I will answer to because that’s me. So I think there’s a, there’s something in there about it, about this, like knowing all of our lives that our last names have been attached to the men and that they’re changeable too, because I mean, when women get married, sometimes they change their last names. It’s actually becoming more common now. Not to but it still happens.

Brie Tucker: Oh my gosh. Yeah. And like you said, like talk about the changing last names. Like I really hemmed and hawed when I got divorced over whether or not I changed my last name. And you know why? Because I didn’t want people to judge me or judge my kids. If my last name didn’t match theirs. And I can tell you like as they’ve gotten older now that I have a 16 and a 17 year old. It actually has become more of a pain in the butt that I don’t have the same last name as them. Like I have to prove that I’m their mom

JoAnn Crohn: Oh,

Brie Tucker: because simply that last name doesn’t match. And that is like very frustrating and definitely makes me have a lot more animosity towards that whole changing of the last name thing. And like, and why aren’t our kids with our last names? Like

JoAnn Crohn: Well, it’s funny because I remember, remember we had in girl scouts, one of our scouts I was talking with her mom and like, she’s like, oh yeah, well, my husband, yeah, he went to a small school too in Tucson,

Brie Tucker: yeah!

JoAnn Crohn: I’m like, he went to a small school in Tucson, Arizona.

And I’m like, And she described it. I’m like, that’s the school. I’m like, but I don’t, I don’t remember somebody with that last name. And she’s like, that’s because he took my last name. And I’m like, Oh,

Brie Tucker: Do you remember why? Why did they do that? I don’t remember

JoAnn Crohn: It was to honor her father who had just passed away when they got married and to keep the last name going.

Brie Tucker: That is so sweet. I love that.

JoAnn Crohn: And you hear instances of that. And there’s another story I have about last names where this guy I knew when he got married, he combined his last name with his wife’s last name. So like his last name, I think was Jenkins and hers last name was sparks or other way

Brie Tucker: So they both hyphenated?

JoAnn Crohn: No, they created a new name, Sparkins. Yes! And they were Sparkins, and this is the first time I’ve ever heard of that happening. But yeah, they just created a new last name out of their union, and I’m like, that is so cool. Like, I could see like, Mad Crow, or Crow, Cronan, yeah,

Brie Tucker: No, I think the first one was your better option. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: or combining all our last names into Tuck Gabrielle, which happens.

Brie Tucker: Here’s an inside joke on that one, people,

JoAnn Crohn: Inside joke on that one,

Brie Tucker: another time.

JoAnn Crohn: can be done. It can be done. So it’s another interesting way just to like, you know, make women of equal, equal stature and power. So until next time, remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker: Beat down the patriarchy! Yeah! Thanks for stopping by!