Podcast Episode 348: Raising Changemakers: How to Teach Kids About Social Change Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

Sociologists have this term called civic desert where we are disconnected from each other. There’s not as many spaces that we come to together. Americans are not getting as involved in our communities and see silos of identity, thoughts, et cetera. So breaking from that is vital.

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host JoAnn Crohn here with the lovely Brie Tucker. Hey, hey, hey. 

I’m not a fan of this one.

Should I? Hey, you’re lucky you got the nice one. It was going in my head as the 1990 Budweiser commercial.

Yeah, if you have not listened to the podcast before, is trying out her intro, which is why I am so blunt when I’m like, I’m not a fan of that one. Just know it’s an ongoing thing, ongoing thing. But today we have such an amazing guest who’s written a children’s book all about the need for kids to get involved in social change, about how like we can encourage our kids to get involved in social change and find their roles and find their values. It is going to be

Such a fantastic conversation and we can’t wait to get into it. Deepa Iyer is a writer, podcaster and social justice advocate. Her books include Social Change Now, a guide for reflection and connection and her newest one, We Are the Builders, a picture book for kids about being community helpers. In her work life, she supports organizations and networks do their work for social change more effectively and sustainably. Plus she’s a mom to a 14 year old.

And with that, let’s get on with the show.

INTRO MUSIC

Speaker 2 (02:16.13)

Welcome Deepa to the No Guilt Mom Podcast, how are you?

I am so glad to be here. Thank you so much, Joanne

And you know what we always have to give the love to a fellow girl mom

Oh my gosh. It’s a hard life. I have a 16 year old and an 11 year old. Bri has a 16 and a 17 year old. Oh, we feel it.

Dear-

Speaker 1 (02:39.32)

Yes, it’s a lot. It’s a lot. appreciate the solidarity. I need it.

So your book, We Are the Builders, I’m excited to get into it, but first I like to find out a little bit about your life. And you moved from India to Kentucky at the age of

Yes, I did.

That had to be a huge change.

You are absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (03:02.626)

Yeah, yeah, you went for a big cultural change there, so…

I still ask my parents like, why? Of all the places, why? But it was, know, my dad had an opportunity to do some more learning and it was the only university that he got accepted in to do that learning. So we got there and settled down and my parents still live there. you know, there’s a great community there now that they’re part of. But when I moved there in the mid 80s, it was absolutely a shock.

Yeah, you this displacement on like so many levels and not really knowing sort of how I fit in, how I could connect with other members in my classes. I had a really thick Indian accent and so feeling very excluded and bullied. A lot of the experiences that so many immigrants have in this country and trying to figure out like, who am I, you know, in terms of my race and in terms of my identity. So

A lot of those experiences were super hard and they also shaped a lot of my interests and my curiosities sort of throughout my adult life as well.

It’s interesting because like I, I was bullied in middle school for very different reasons, of course, but all of those instances too, makes me more aware today of like how I’m raising my kids. And also it has shaped my entire life. Like I am such a supporter of women and what women need because I had that experience. So it sounds like.

Speaker 2 (04:40.322)

that experience shaped you as well, especially looking to see the field that you went into. Yeah. In shaping social justice. So when you were like in high school getting ready to go off to college, like did you yet feel that you were going to like go into a career in this sort of field or like what were your thoughts then?

Yeah, that’s a good question. I wish I could say I was like, you know, totally like knew all the right words to say.

The ribbon at the age of 12, right?

I think that I had like an intuitive sense, right, about the importance of equality and people being treated the same, given what my family’s experiences were. I think that I was really drawn to community, like community as a space of belonging, but I think that I probably could not have, you know, talked about social justice or any of the concepts that we’re so familiar with now at that age.

But I think it was this feeling of belonging, this question of how do we belong in America? How do we create spaces and communities of belonging that really were important conversations and curiosities I had that I did bring to college, tried to find my space, my community that’s there. And then throughout my career as a lawyer and a writer focusing on

Speaker 1 (06:04.844)

the ways in which people are marginalized in the United States, whether it’s by race or faith or citizenship status or gender identity, sexual orientation, and identifying how we intervene in those situations to create more kind of inclusive, diverse, and representative communities.

Yeah, I think that’s such a, it’s such the question right now, like how do we create belonging in our society, especially because a lot of our lives are online. I mean, we have this great benefit that we could work from home now. We don’t have to stay in a car for a commute and that’s wonderful, but you also get the missing of this interaction with other people and getting to be exposed all the time to people who are different than you, people who have different ideals than you.

Like especially in today’s day and age, Deepa, like what have you found in terms of belonging and communities that has helped you form communities and can help others?

I think you’re so right. I think that more and more sociologists have come up with this term called civic deserts, where we are disconnected from each other. There’s not as many civic spaces that we come to together. That great book by Robert Putnam, Bowling Alone, that folks might be aware of, talked about how Americans are volunteering less. We’re not getting as involved in our communities. And the technological piece,

certainly adds to that and creates these silos of identity, thought, et cetera. So breaking from that is, I think, vital for us to create belonging. I also think it’s really difficult when we’re living in a time when we hear from our government and from policymakers that there are some people who belong and some people who don’t. And polarization.

Speaker 3 (08:03.436)

Yes and yes. Sorry. Contained by yes. my gosh. I feel like that is a huge thing right now.

I just I couldn’t

Speaker 1 (08:12.8)

Yeah, and we’re taking this podcast sort of on the heels of it, right? So it’s really on our minds. Yeah, and and I think a lot about us, but I also think about our kids and you know, if they’re growing up in, you know, civic deserts, if they’re growing up, you know, in schools where there might be like educational gag orders or reluctance to talk about certain types of histories or identities and experiences, then how are they really prepared right to

take on the challenges that they are going to inherit, that we have bequeathed to them, right? Whether it is climate disasters, whether it’s racial injustice, whether it’s gender injustice, whatever it is. So I think it’s so vital for us to figure out how young people can be empowered and feel confident in changing their communities and to do so in a way that is really grounded in collaboration.

Absolutely. attack on education and public education is really what scares me the most. mean, I’m a former teacher. My dad was a teacher. We believe in public education and getting people exposed to many different ideas because that is really what builds empathy and what builds change.

And that’s what education is. Right. Like it’s about learning about things in a deeper way than what is already placed right in front of you. It’s about learning how to think, learning how to question. And you can’t do that when you’re only given portions of what’s going on. Portions of the story, portions of the truth, portions of reality, right?

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:52.524)

And like how you said, like these civic deserts where people aren’t getting involved in their community. I mean, like I see so much trouble coming from that. The experience that is most salient in my mind is I was talking a few years ago with a friend who was very against having transgender people in bathrooms. And I was like, okay. And I’m like, tell me more about this. And she’s like, well, I just don’t think my daughter’s ready for it.

And it occurred to me right there in that moment, I’m like, have you ever met somebody who’s transgender? And she’s like, no. I’m like, well, there we go. That’s really like the issue when you’re not exposed to people, you think the worst and you think like the worst is going to happen and it’s not an accurate.

Absolutely. And then I think when you hear dehumanizing language, right, when people are cast, like when asylum seekers are cast as invaders or when trans community members are seen as different in some way that threatens public safety, that kind of language, that dehumanizing narrative and language also sets up this environment where

meeting people and getting to know them and keeping an open mind, like you said, Joanne, becomes even harder to do. So I do feel like our young people have a lot of obstacles in front of them. And I think they need our support and our guidance, our interventions, our books, you know, our experiences in order to be able to meet this moment.

Yes, definitely. And we are going to talk about how we can help our kids do that right after this. So Deepa, we were talking about how that we could really teach our kids on how to become more engaged in their community. And in your book, We Are the Builders, Ramla guides children to discover their roles in the community. Have you in your life played a guiding role for someone to help them discover their roles in their community?

Speaker 1 (11:49.774)

I think I try to do that. You know, as a guide, we’re usually like mentors, right? We’re trying to, because of our own wisdom and our discernment, we’re trying to support others in understanding what their skills and their strengths are and how they can utilize those in a particular way. And so you’re so right that in this book, Ramla is a little bit older than the children that have come to Community Day, which is the scene for the book, We Are the Builders. And she is taking on that role of helping these children find their innate strengths and skills by exposing them to these different roles that they could play in order to change their communities.

And I think that is so huge because a lot of us these days, even as adults, feel like what’s the point? I can’t make a difference. I’m one person. I’m not enough.

Well, let’s dig into that, Bree. What are some of the roles that our kids can play and we can play in our communities?

So just to kind of take a step back, this book, We Are the Builders, is based on a framework that I developed back in 2017 called the Social Change Ecosystem Map. And I developed it because I was going through these experiences of feeling like I was on a seesaw of like overwhelm and outreign over and over bouncing back and forth. you said,

Speaker 1 (13:22.19)

not really knowing sort of where I could intervene or step in. Even though I was connected to a lot of social change efforts, I still felt that way, felt hopeless, felt a lot of despair. And then, I have to say I feel that way right now.

Well maybe by the end of this you won’t-

Yeah, like I, we’re not, we did a podcast on this earlier this year about feeling like, so overwhelmed with everything that is going on in the world that just are like, what, can we do? So I need the, yeah, I need this book.

Speaker 1 (13:57.934)

I think this framework is like a gentle entry point, right? When we feel these ways, which all of us do. And what it really focuses on is first anchoring ourselves in what’s important to us, our values and our goals, right? And that could be something like, you know, supporting my neighborhood to a big word like solidarity. And then the next step is to think about the roles that we can show up in or are being called upon to play or even aspire to play. And there are 10 roles that are represented in this map. And they range from builders who create sort of the foundation for a lot of what we need to be doing in the world to visionaries who are kind of thinking about like, this is the North Star. They’re inspiring us to get there. To caregivers who are asking, what do you need today?

How can I support you? To experimenters that are coming up with new ways to solve problems, to weavers who are making connections across communities and across issues to understand how they’re intertwined. So anyway, those are just some examples. And all of us have those skills and those strengths. And I’d love to know what you all, for both of you, what roles speak to you. But the…

The framework is that, and I noticed when I released it in 2017 that it was resonating with a lot of folks well beyond my small community of activists. And one of the communities that it resonated with were teachers, going back to your, Joanne, teachers who would write me, kindergarten, first grade, second grade teachers who said, I’m using this framework inside my classroom for young children to understand the roles in the community.

And I thought, well, what about their own roles, right? Because children too can identify these roles. And so that’s really what led me to write a children’s picture book. I’ve never done that before. So it was really hearing from teachers that inspired me to do that. And it’s been so gratifying because the book has been embraced by teachers and parents and caregivers and students and young people. Because I think that it’s…

Speaker 1 (16:21.632)

It’s an empowering and confident, inspiring way of thinking about our role in the world, in a really tough world.

Yeah, it is a really tough world. And I love like the children’s book aspect. makes me think of something that I do in my own life because it’s so much easier to look at our kids and be like, what can I teach my kids than it is to turn inward at ourselves and be like, but do we really know this ourselves? Like, do you know what I mean? Like I would be as a teacher, I’d be like, look, you could be a visionary. You could be a builder. You could be this. And yet like sometimes when we’re grown up, we’re like, our chance has passed. We can’t be that anymore.

Okay, so with that being said, what would be your role right? What do you think you naturally gravitate towards out of those seven that we talked about to start?

Well, first of all, just to your point, Joanne, I think that this framework also reminds us that we don’t have to actually pick one role throughout our lives and that as we change, we should be thinking about the different roles that we can play, right? Because we don’t want to be stagnant. So like if you had asked me two years ago, I might’ve said something different than what I would say today. But today I feel like I play the role of a guide to support others. especially those who are frontline responders that are dealing with a lot of the crises in our country. And another role that I play is that of a builder because I tend to be someone who likes to put things together. So if there’s like, you know, some sort of situation where we need to create something to bring people together, like a community town hall or some sort of digital community space, right? Like I like to create and build those opportunities.

Speaker 1 (18:05.08)

for folks to come together. So those are two that immediately come to mind. But I’d to know about you both too.

I’m definitely a builder at this point in my life, building this company and building the community we have, our balanced community. And I’d like to say I’m a visionary, showing people where they could go and what’s possible.

I love that you’re saying that because that’s one of the roles that often that adults not children are loathe to raise their hands for because I think there’s a bit of imposter syndrome that comes with that role of visionary. So I love it that you claimed it. Well, sometimes I think I’m

Speaker 1 (18:47.66)

Well, that’s the third part I didn’t mention. like values, you know, and then roles. And the third part is the ecosystem, which is we can’t do any of this by ourselves. So in order to prevent you from being a delusional visionary, which I’m sure you’re not, then you could lean on the guides in your ecosystem who could say to you, yeah, that was a little off, Joanne, but this is more you, right? And so that’s why we need each other to play these different roles for each other too. But what about you, Grie?

say that I am definitely a caregiver. That is what speaks to me and is in my core. like to provide the support I can. then would it be a weaver? I’m trying to remember. I like to be able to help people find the resources that are available that I know of. don’t have that visionary step. Joanne has this thing where she could be like, and then this could be created. I’m like,

Yeah, no, I just know that you can call 4-1-1 then.

Right. That’s totally weak. These resources that I know of here can be actually applied to this space here. Yeah. That will make the connection. Yeah.

There are resources in that, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:00.622)

that’s interesting. Okay, I want to know more about this and especially like how adults can then take these roles and like take action in their own lives. And we’re going to talk about that right after this. So Depot, what we’ve been talking about is adults in particular, like what roles they are. How can we then help our kids to find their roles?

Yeah, so, you know, one of the things that I realized when I’ve been sort of on my little book tour for this book, I’ve been in like classrooms and libraries, is that kids like very easily connect with these roles. I was a little nervous because going into classrooms to talk about visionaries, right, or disruptors or experimenters, isn’t easy necessarily, but

I have found that time and again, kids easily get it. So I’ll give you a couple of examples. One time I was in a school, read the book, talked about the roles and this one girl raised her hand and she said, I’m a guide. And I was like, why do you say that? And she said, well, because my parents are not fluent English speakers and I translate for them to make sure that they understand X, Y, Z, right? And was so like, she not only knew that she was a guide, but then she gave an example, that was so relevant and salient, right, in the second grader. And this happens over and over where kids very quickly raise their hands, because the book has sort of a call and response part to it. So it says, who wants to join the builders? Who wants to join the disruptors? And so kids can raise their hands. So I have found that kids very easily resonate. So for parents and for teachers, I think the job is not as hard. I think it’s about them saying,

Well, what are some examples, right, of how you play these roles to ask our children? Another is to reflect our roles back to them, because I think that’s really helpful for them to understand that we might have thought about it too. And to say, well, you know, like three years ago, I thought of myself as a weaver, and now I’m more of a storyteller. And this is why, right? And then a third way to think about it is

Speaker 1 (22:04.824)

How do we then use this in community or what do we see in community? So for example, if we look at our school, we can think about our school nurse as a caregiver, we can think about our teachers as guides. So how do we actually look at our community, our ecosystem, and identify the roles that folks are playing and recognize that they’re connected in order to then make our ecosystem stronger?

Absolutely. I’m gonna throw a little curveball in here with this ecosystem thing because I see something happening particularly with moms where a lot of the discussion out there is forcing women into a very particular role, which is that of caregiver, like putting all the weight of being a caregiver on the women. What have you seen in terms of how forcing people into roles isn’t, does it work? What happens there?

it’s a great question. It’s so true because when people reflect back on some of these roles, they’ll say, you know, I have to always play x, y, z role. And so what I often ask is like, what are the roles you’re called upon to play? And how do you push back on that if it isn’t serving you? What are intervention points? And what are the roles that you aspire to play? So caregivers often we hear from, you know, clearly from women saying that’s the role that they have to play, not just at home, but also in work and every other space, right? That’s what we stood upon them to be the ones that remember like, you know, my colleagues’ birthdays, my, you know, whatever it is, right? My kids’ teachers’ needs, whatever. Whereas with disruptors, often it’s people of color who have to play that role because they are the ones who have to, who take that on, right? So I often say when we’re,

When I’m working with folks on this, can you think about playing a role that you don’t naturally play? So how can people with like race or class privilege become more comfortable with the role of the disruptor? How can people who are not gendered as women become more comfortable with the role of a caregiver? So where can we stretch and where can we grow so that we don’t fall into, just like you said, Joanne, the stereotypical

Speaker 1 (24:25.518)

roles that society has decided or culture has decided that certain people should play. How do we play the role of the disruptor? I’m interested. Yeah, I disrupt

Both of us are like- Let’s- I like this! Let’s- No, no, no, I’m joking, I’m joking.

That is one thing. let’s disrupt things. And it’s such a tough word, right? It is not a word that we are comfortable with, which is why I used it. I could have used other words. But I often think about, you know, Representative John Lewis, who talked about getting into necessary and good trouble. That’s like what I think of whenever I think of a disruptor. And that can show up in lots of ways. It can show up as, you know, I’m going to this rally and this protest. But there’s also gentle disruption that can happen.

So that is, for example, asking a question that’s on everyone’s minds at a meeting that you decide to ask instead of waiting for someone else or putting it on someone else. It could mean intervening in a conversation at a family event that you feel is discriminatory or is spreading disinformation, right? Instead of saying, I don’t care, this is not my place,

Speaker 1 (25:41.11)

actually saying, it doesn’t, know, disruption doesn’t have to be in this like in your face way, right? And I also feel like whenever we disrupt, we also want to build. Like it’s not just about saying that is wrong, but it’s also saying, and could I offer you some other information, right? Or I have another idea. And that’s why in this framework, it’s really important to work together. So disruptors and builders are really good complimentary roles to play. So if we see ourselves as disruptors, we might want to make sure that we’re working with builders as well so that it isn’t just like, okay, I got rid of it down and leaving nothing there.

We can work with builders to come up with like a different model that could take the place of what we decide has to be dismantled.

Yep. like thinking back to January where, President Trump took office and started dismantling everything with executive orders. I would see that he is probably a disruptor in that regard. Not a good one. Not a good one. Let’s just make my opinions clear on this. like, I look at disruptors and being the good trouble. And in particular, the bishop who stood up in front of the church service that President Trump was and

Speaker 2 (27:00.172)

That would be an example of a disrupt.

That is an excellent example.

Now wait, would that be gentle disrupt? Or would that have been-

Corruption? Corruption. I think that honestly what the bishop did, what they said was so gentle.

Yes, right? Like she had such a…

Speaker 1 (27:19.672)

but what they did and they used their platform, right, to be able to push things a little bit further. So I think that it was a little bit of both. I think it was gentle and it was actually extremely powerful and extremely important, right? And disruption always often comes with consequences and you’ve, you we’ve seen how the bishop, for example, is dealing with a lot of negative consequences. So that’s why when we take on the role of a disruptor, it’s also important to kind of flesh out.

Well, what are the consequences on me, on my community, on others? And think about that. And often disruptors will say, that’s okay, I can handle those consequences. So I’m sure that the bishop probably thought about the consequences of doing something like this, right? And figured out how to align their message in that way. So it is definitely a time where we’re seeing disruption, both in ways that are generative and ways that are just destructive.

And I think we need to be able to discern those two different ways and decide, you know, where we’re going to be on that trajectory.

is such a good point right there. as you say, disruption comes with some negative consequences. What could we do when we see a disruptor? How could we support them?

I think that we can support them in a couple of different ways. One is to have a conversation about how we can support them in terms of what can be put in place, right? Instead, whatever it is that they’re saying or doing, like what else do they need?

Speaker 2 (28:52.554)

of the builder thing or like the caregiver role or yeah.

Yeah, you got it already. See, I love it. Intuitive framework. Yeah, you did it. Yeah. So if you’re a builder, you could be like, here’s some ways that I might be able to support what’s generated right after the disruption happens or a guide. Um, especially I think about young people who have disruption disruptor energy. Um, you know, how can we be guides to them to help them think about, um, how to talk about issues in ways.

that are persuasive, that people will understand, that doesn’t alienate people, right? So those are all ways in which we can support disruptors who are so vital.

What you said, a kid who has disruptor energy. So all you moms out there with kids who call you out on every single thing, it’s some good disruptor energy that just needs to be channeled a little bit more.

You’re so right.

Speaker 3 (29:49.484)

The why? Why? But why? Why? But why?

But why

No. I’m not gonna. I’m not gonna do that.

Kids have potential!

Speaker 2 (29:58.19)

Yeah, might listen mine for my own conversations with my son. Yes.

Yeah, as a 14 year old, uh-huh. My daughter like was trying to get me to do something the other day and I swear the text message thread was very long, but it ended with, have made a good case. I have yet to hear a good valid reason why I can’t do it.

There you go. There you go. You have raised, have done a good

yeah, her daughter’s definitely has disruptor energy that needs to be used for some good there. we like to end every interview like this. What is something that you’re looking forward to in your life right now?

Speaker 3 (30:30.466)

Yes. That’s what I tell you.

Speaker 1 (30:36.974)

I am really looking forward to traveling with my son and with friends. I just really enjoy being able to go to different places. And so there are a couple of trips coming up in the spring and summer that I’m excited about.

Wow, that is exciting. I love to travel as well. Well, thank you Diva so much for this conversation. I am so enthralled with all of these different roles and I’m going to be thinking about how it applies to kids. Just thank you again for coming on.

this was great. I really enjoyed the conversation and thank you for creating the space and community.

Okay, so first of all, need to jump in. The flow of that conversation was so fast, so fluid, so rapid that there were a couple of comments I had to hold my tongue on. First of all, let me add my hand up in the air as the third member of our tribe that was bullied all through like elementary, middle and high school. I know you and I have talked about that before, but I wanted to be like, I know what it’s like. there’s that. And then also,

Speaker 3 (31:40.61)

At the end, I was sharing with Diva, and you already know all this about me. I have a transgendered nephew and my husband is Hispanic. Like, I feel a lot of angst about things that are going on, a lot of worry, a lot of apprehension for myself and for my loved ones. And it’s scary. It’s hard. I think I’m gonna have to step up and harness that inner punk, that I love and become more of a disruptor than a caregiver. I mean, I can still do it. I’ll be a gentle disruptor.

We could be a gentle disruptor. Yeah, you could start locally. Locally being like family unit. You could start family.

I said it, not you. Hi, Bie’s Family. Still love me when you see me, please. They do. Okay. Well, Deepa was amazing. Please go check out her book, We Are the Builders, which is a picture book for kids about being community helpers. Until next time, remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk to you later.

Thanks for stopping by.