Podcast Episode 293: Is Your Kid a Mastermind Manipulator or Just Being a Kid Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

JoAnn Crohn: We use this for five years with my daughter until she was 13 years old and eligible for her own bank account at like a real bank , like Wells Fargo, she has her own ATM card, everything. But my son still uses his because he’s not old enough for it. And so when you set up this bank account, it automatically gives you an out on these situations.

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host, JoAnn Crohn joined here by the lovely Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker: Why, hello, hello, everybody. How are you?

JoAnn Crohn: this podcast episode was inspired by a coaching session that I recently had with a client. And I think that we can all identify with this situation because you are asked repeatedly for everything, buying everything. I mean, Brie, you have something very like.

Brie Tucker: when you brought this episode up, my mind immediately went to this. Exactly. I mean, you just get to your last nerve, you’re asked for all of the things and it’s like this nonstop barrage of questions because all of these thoughts appear to you in your head when you’re being asked these questions.

JoAnn Crohn: First of all, shouldn’t my child know better? Are they manipulating me or are they doing it on purpose? They’re just trying to get what they want. I should have been a better mom and raised them better. I must have done something wrong else. They wouldn’t be doing this. All those things.

Brie Tucker: Yeah, you convince yourself that your child has a much more elaborate executive functioning than they actually do. And I mean, like we’re talking about how this came up in coaching is with like a, I believe like an elementary to middle school aged kiddo, but I mean, I would,

JoAnn Crohn: preteen. Yeah. 11, 13 years

Brie Tucker: But I would see this exact same thought process in parents for like, a one year old. we all believe that we are raising a Stewie or a Megamind, evil mastermind, in the background somehow that they have figured out how to emotionally manipulate people. And the truth of the matter is, most of the time, we are wrong.

JoAnn Crohn: We are, but we’re going to get into that today. So if you have had that same thought process, we’re going to dismantle it today. We’re going to give you some really, really great tidbits that you can take back to your own parenting. So now let’s get on with the show. So I like how you bring up that we’re raising like a student. Stewie or Megamind, because that is most often when we have women in balance talking about a kid behavior. A lot of the mom guilt comes from this fear that if we don’t check this behavior right now, it is going to be a problem in the future.

Brie Tucker: exactly. Exactly. And it’s, I mean, we’re not going to say that there’s absolutely no chance it’ll become a problem in the future, but in order for things to line up just so for that to happen, you would have to not be doing a lot of things that you are probably doing. Like, you would have to be pretty absent in your parenting. Yeah, exactly. In order for those things to happen. I’m just gonna throw

JoAnn Crohn: Oh, yeah,

Brie Tucker: right now.

JoAnn Crohn: but the fear exists, nonetheless, when we had Kyle and Sarah Wester on the podcast, they’re from the Art of Raising Humans podcast. Kyle was talking about how freaked out he would get when Sarah wouldn’t, like, immediately punish or discipline their kids for a behavior. He had going through his mind that, oh my gosh, , they’re going to turn out to be sick.

Spoiled, they’re going to turn out to be like all these things. And so he was very much acting on a fear instinct, which I think a lot of people do. So let’s talk about this and talk about like these things that kids do, because I think it comes from a misunderstanding of exactly where the brain is in development when they’re kids, right? Would you say so?

Brie Tucker: would say so, yes.

JoAnn Crohn: this was like a wonderful example of this was a recent interview I heard with an expert. She’s a clinical psychologist on narcissism. Her name’s Romani Durvasula. And she was talking about all of these, Indicators of narcissistic behavior, things like only thinking about yourself not caring about other people’s feelings and emotions.

And immediately you can hear that and you’re like, Oh my gosh. My kid’s a narcissist, but she puts in the stipulation that only after the age of 25 if these symptoms exist, can they be considered narcissism because before that age, It’s normal,

Brie Tucker: Because before that age, listen, they’re all selfish, self centered little buttheads. No, I’m joking. I love them.

JoAnn Crohn: kind of, but you’re right.

Brie Tucker: yeah, we still love them, but we can also admit that sometimes our kids can be little buttholes.

JoAnn Crohn: yeah, and there’s reasoning behind that too, because when we think of the brain, we always talk about, the frontal lobe, the area right behind your forehead, the area that is responsible for all your logic and your decision making and that area doesn’t form. Until they’re 25 years old. And this has kind of been something that has been misconstrued though.

Like my dad used to tell me, Oh, like you should never get married until you’re 25 because that’s what you’re cerebral cortex fully forms and you can make the best decisions. And of course, me being me, I got married at 24. but, but I made a great decision and I’m still married. We’re almost 20 years married now.

Brie Tucker: could see you being like, no dad, I’m going to do it my way. 25.

JoAnn Crohn: But it’s true though. In when The cerebral cortex isn’t completely formed. Other areas of the brain are likely to take over

in Dr. Lisa DeMoore’s book, The Emotional Lives of Teenagers, she talks about how the brain matures from the bottom up. So like, starting in teens, the first, level of the brain to mature is that brain stem, which controls all of, like, your, like, Functions like breathing, your heart rate, all those things.

And then the amygdala, which is that fear center where fight or flight operates. So if you think about it, you have this amygdala, which is like, Much more maturely formed, much more intense than your cerebral cortex, which is in charge of all your logical decision making. So when you see in like preteens and teens, this overactive, like temper, this overactive fear response, this not like noticing your emotions or feelings, nor caring about your emotions or

Brie Tucker: Ooh, that’s the one that stings.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, that overactive amygdala has just overridden the frontal lobe, which has late like It’s beaten it to a pulp. It’s like the winner. It has its flag and it’s running around and it’s like, oh, yeah Oh, yeah,

Brie Tucker: and your frontal cortex looks like, looks like Rocky. It’s all like, oh, I tried.

JoAnn Crohn: It’s black and blue it tried it really tried but it gets better as they age because Just like Rocky when he trained in the gym, that cerebral cortex, that frontal lobe is going to get stronger and stronger and stronger. And so logic is going to make a difference with your child. A common mistake I see parents make.

Is that they try to explain all of their decisions about why kids can’t have something to them. It’ll be like, mom, can I have ice cream? No, you can’t have ice cream because you know, sugar is going to stimulate your hunger before dinner and it won’t be a good thing for you. And so they try to explain all this stuff to a 10 and 11 year old in the moment when all that 10 and 11 year old wants is ice cream.

And all that 10 and 11 year old hears is. Womp, womp, womp, womp, womp, womp, like Charlie Brown, because they just can’t process it yet. And because they’ve tried to explain all of it, you think, Oh, my kids should know better, and they shouldn’t ask again. But the kid hasn’t even taken in the information to begin with, and that kid has that overactive amygdala. That overrides any sort of logic that would have exist anyways.

Brie Tucker: So just to be clear, are you saying that they shouldn’t say it at all and they should just say because they said so?

JoAnn Crohn: Not. Oh, that’s a really good question,

Brie Tucker: you.

JoAnn Crohn: So, because I said So

Brie Tucker: I mean, because you just said, like, here, I’m going to be your yeah, but yeah, but you just said, don’t explain it. You just said, mistake I see parents do is explain it. So then my brain would go to, well, then I should just say no,

JoAnn Crohn: Because I said,

Brie Tucker: because I said so, but that’s not what we’re saying.

JoAnn Crohn: no, that’s not what we’re saying. When I say don’t explain it, what I mean is don’t go into explicit detail about why you made the decision that you made. you can make it short and sweet. Like, mom, can I have ice cream? No, it’s too close to dinner. That’s it. But why, why can’t I have ice cream?

You don’t have to say anything else to explain it after that. You could just say. I’ve already answered that question, or no, it’s too close to dinner and just repeat the same exact thing you said, because any additional reasoning about why you have to do it isn’t going to sink in and it’s just going to become really, really aggravating to you.

I feel this as well as a parent, because my kids will come up with a why, and I’ll immediately get this like jolt of fear. And I’ll be like, Oh my God, I don’t really have a good reason. what’s my reason? Like, is not having dinner beforehand a good reason? I mean, they’re going to have the dessert anyway.

So like, why don’t I just let them have it before dinner? And like, I start fighting with myself in my mind and I like start sweating almost. So like, as a mom, there’s a huge physical reaction to this as well.

Brie Tucker: it’s huge. And it makes us so upset. So worked up out of an imaginary conversation that hasn’t even happened. So it can, it can be a lot.

JoAnn Crohn: So we’re going to go into some specific things that you can do right after this. So I hate to be nagged, Brie. I hate to be asked things multiple times. It’s like an assault on your nervous system.

Brie Tucker: most people feel like that. I think they do. And I think that I could speak for the majority of moms out there that are like, we have had a long day. With a lot of crap going on the last thing you want to do is start poking the bear

JoAnn Crohn: Oh yeah. And the

Brie Tucker: mom, please mom mom? Can I mom mom mom?

JoAnn Crohn: it doesn’t even help like that, like it doesn’t even happen like that. I’m about to tell you to shut up.

Brie Tucker: do. I’m like, did I just piss you off? Huh? Huh? Is that annoying?

JoAnn Crohn: And I wouldn’t tell my kid that by the way. I would only tell Brie to shut up. I would probably leave the room if my kid was doing that and like shut a door.

Brie Tucker: Well, I was being an evil mastermind right there.

JoAnn Crohn: Probably, yeah. I totally lost my train of thought now. I don’t even know

Brie Tucker: I’m sorry about that. No, we were talking about how, like, they just keep asking and how that’s an assault on your senses. There is so much going on, and it just, can only take so much.

JoAnn Crohn: And they’re so good at the bait and switch too. They will take something that you said in the past and like twist it so easily to make it apply to that particular specific situation. Like they will find fallacies in your logic before. Be like, mom, well, you said yes to dessert last week. So what makes this today different than the last week? And

Brie Tucker: how is it that they can come up with those facts so quickly, but they can’t remember something that they’ve been studying in school for a month on a quiz? But they can, or they can’t remember where they put their shoes. You The night before, but they can remember when you said yes one time six weeks ago at 745 in the morning, like when they are half asleep,

JoAnn Crohn: they can cite that so easily.

Brie Tucker: They can cite their sources ridiculously.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, it brings up so much guilt as a parent because also, I don’t know if you get this too, but my parents used to use the phrase, Oh, we can’t afford that. I know they could afford it, by the way, because I never asked for anything too big, you know, but it was like, Oh, we can’t afford that.

We can’t afford that. And like money wasn’t even talked about in the home. And I think the conversations around money have changed over the years, maybe, or maybe it’s just my views of it thinking that, you know, you want to talk to your kids about money. What is actually something that you put a priority on versus like something that you don’t put a priority on? Because that’s really. All spending is when my parents were saying I can’t afford that it wasn’t that they couldn’t afford it It was that they didn’t prioritize it or think it was important.

Brie Tucker: Yeah.

Well, I’ll say that like in my household, yes, that statement gets used a decent amount because my daughter, like me, we both when we get bored, want to go out and go do stuff. And you know who doesn’t like that? My checkbook. I don’t understand. Like my stupid. Debit card and money I have doesn’t understand that it needs to be endless.

So I will sometimes say that, but you’re right. It really does come down to whether or not it’s a priority. And I will say that I’m not sure how we got to this position, but we did get to a position in my household that I’m sure you have in your household as well. Cause I know you so well, where if my kid comes to me with something that is More than her just saying like, hey, can we eat out tonight?

And it’s something like, I really, really want these shoes or I really, really want to go to Disneyland with my friends, something like that, where I know I don’t have the money, like, just sitting right there easily to hand over. I would be like, okay we don’t have that, but. Let’s come up with a way that we can come up with that together

JoAnn Crohn: hmm making that plan for it

Brie Tucker: right, right. So, but you are right. Like, I immediately felt guilty when you said that, but then I’m like, you know what, but I think I say that to, like, let’s go to Starbucks or Dutch Bros or Black Rock for the millionth time,

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah,

Brie Tucker: know, just cause.

JoAnn Crohn: becomes, it becomes a thing where like, if you do have the money to afford it, like I have I mean, like our money situation, it’s much better than I had growing up much better. And a lot of times when my kids ask for something like DoorDash or something like that, it wouldn’t break the bank. Like at all. And like, I look at that, but I’m like, I don’t want them to have door dash all the time. Like,

Brie Tucker: Yeah, just cuz you can.

JoAnn Crohn: just cause you can. Does it mean like you should have it? Or just cause we do have the money doesn’t mean you should have it. And I feel that’s where you get into kind of trouble when you’re like, we can’t afford it. We don’t have the money is because when you do have the money, then it’s like, where’s the decision then?

Brie Tucker: Right, cuz they’ll be quick to say to you, like, Mm, yeah, I think we can afford this, Mom. That’s five dollars. Come on.

JoAnn Crohn: Oh yeah, they will cite that source fast.

Brie Tucker: Right?

JoAnn Crohn: So it comes into being able to really get them to experience what their priorities are and how to make those decisions versus if I spend money on this now, is it worth it? And will I have this money later? And so what I did with my kids, which has worked Transcribed So well, and we have the tools for you to do this with your kids as well is to set them on a spending allowance and what this allowance looked like in our house is they got a dollar a week for every year of their age.

So when my daughter was eight, she got 8 a week. When my son was five, he got 5 a week and I had it set up in a spreadsheet. So when my daughter was eight, she got 5 a week and I had it set up in a spreadsheet. So that it automatically, I didn’t have to add it each week. It automatically added in their allowance and it gave them interest for keeping that money in longer. And that interest was not any standard banking interest. We’re talking about like high value savings account interest, like the interest you would kill for it. any. Bank, this is what they

Brie Tucker: This was like, you gave them like a 401k match,

JoAnn Crohn: yes, it’s like 4 percent interest compounded weekly. Like that’s what we’re talking about here. It’s some good stuff for keeping your money in the bank.

Brie Tucker: And, and on top of that, I’m gonna give a little bit of a teaser for you guys. The kids not react the same way to it, I don’t think. Right?

JoAnn Crohn: What do you mean?

Brie Tucker: cause one kid still spent it and one kid saved it.

JoAnn Crohn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. My daughter would not touch that stuff. Like she was like, American girl doll. I’m saving up for that. Whereas my son’s like, I got a dollar. What could I buy? So it’s interesting seeing, it’s interesting seeing how both kids approach money, but it’s also a really great tool because every time they have a purchase, The spreadsheet is accessible on my phone and my husband’s phone.

Whoever, whichever adult, like helps them with the purchase. We just go into that spreadsheet, enter in the column, how much it was for, and it gets deducted from their account. So we have this constant tally of their little uh, We call it, we use this for five years with my daughter until she was 13 years old and eligible for her own bank account at like a real bank, like Wells Fargo, she has her own ATM card, everything.

So now she manages that money in it, which is wonderful. All we get are Zell requests. Mom, I need some food. I’m still like, she’s like, could you sell me this? I’m like, okay. But my son still uses his because he’s not old enough for it. And so when you set up this bank account, it automatically gives you an out on these situations. And I’m going to tell you how to use it right after this.

So here’s what I want you to do. I want you to set up a bank account for your kid. We have one available to you. All of our balance VIP members get our easy chores and allowance system, which has this spreadsheet in it. And what you do is you just download a copy of the spreadsheet and you enter in what your kid’s base allowance is, and it takes it from there.

It is super cool. So you set up this allowance for them and then. When you get into a situation the next time where they’re asking for something, instead of saying, no, here’s what you get to say. Sure. Yeah, that looks awesome. How much do you have in your allowance? And automatically it’s less about you giving them permission.

And more about them having the funds and choosing to spend the funds on that item. And the first time this came into question was when we went to go see the musical Wicked. With my daughter

Brie Tucker: Okay.

JoAnn Crohn: and we are in the lobby at intermission and you know, they have like the big gift shop in the lobby with like wicked sweatshirt and wicked memorabilia and wicked this and wicked that. And she really loved this wicked sweatshirt, which was like $68, which looking like, yeah, I’m like, Oh,

Brie Tucker: you’re so torn in those situations because they’re, they’re They’re so beautiful and they’re a memory of the experience, but God, they’re so expensive.

JoAnn Crohn: they’re so expensive. It’s like a concert t shirt,

Brie Tucker: Yeah, that’s exactly where I’m, yeah, you knew that’s where I was coming from on this. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, calling shirts. So at that moment, we were like, Oh yeah, that’s a really awesome sweatshirt. How much do you have in your allowance? And she was taking it back and she’s like, Oh, okay. And we look at her allowance and she had like maybe 50 in it.

And she’s like, I don’t have that much in my allowance. And then she looked back at the stand and she’s like, that’s a ridiculous price for a sweatshirt. It wasn’t

Brie Tucker: like, I’m so proud of you right now, honey.

JoAnn Crohn: automatically, like we didn’t have to tell her that she realized because she saw what she had and she saw what she was earning. And she’s like, wow. Whoa, I don’t think that’s worth it anymore because it was no longer this nebulous amount of money that reappeared from like magic, the parent’s bank account.

It was something that accumulated in hers. And now she had to make the decisions on what she wanted to get. And. That is the magic of having an allowance for your kids and it takes away all the fights and it’s so like annoying now to my daughter because sometimes she’ll go into Target and she’ll like ask me for something.

I’m like, yeah, cool. Like how much do you have in your bank account? You should get it. And she’s like, mom, you don’t need to ask me how much I have in my bank account. I know how much I have in my bank account. I want you to buy it for me. And I’m like, well, that’s a no. Good.

Brie Tucker: Oh my God. Okay. so I get that too with like, okay. So my son never asked for anything. He is the penny pincher that. if you tell him that he needs to buy something, he’ll be like, no, I don’t want it that bad, but it’s fine. It’s fine. That boy

JoAnn Crohn: That’s me. That’s me.

Brie Tucker: Well, that boy has a five figure savings account.

We’ll just say that he’s still in high school. So he, he doesn’t spend anything, but my daughter who, you know, our daughters have been friends for many years, like same attitude as what you’re, going through with yours. she’ll be like. Yeah, mom. I don’t want to buy it myself. come on, let’s, let’s go.

Let’s go get Blackrock. They have that coffee you like this month. Can we go, can we go mom? Let’s go, let’s go. Or Cinnaholic. Let’s go get Cinnaholic. That’s her favorite cinnamon roll place. Let’s go. And I’ll be like, are you paying? Why should I pay? Because you have money in that savings account. Don’t forget it’s connected to mine.

I know what’s in there. And right now your savings account is laughing at my savings account. So let’s just have a conversation there. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: it’s funny because they didn’t know how to work the system because, it’s not like this is going to solve all your problems. It will create new problems because that’s exactly what life is And that’s also what makes it interesting. Let’s just say that if I had like no challenges or problems, I would have nothing to share day to day. We wouldn’t have a podcast. What would we talk about? Nothing.

Brie Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. Trust me. While we do know a lot of things, we do still have our struggles that happen a lot. And like, what gets me is that there are certain things that my kids will ask for that it’s pushing my buttons. Yeah. It will basically trigger my guilt reaction.

JoAnn Crohn: Mm hmm. And they know how to do it too. Mine know how to do it to me as well.

Brie Tucker: Yes, and in my case, like It’s normally my daughter and I don’t think again, like it’s the manipulation factor, but it is a little bit of like knowing how to talk to people cause I have taught my daughter plenty that when she wants something, like she’ll, I don’t know she wants a ride somewhere.

I can’t take her. I’ll go, go ask your brother. And she’ll be like, I don’t want to ask him. He’ll say no. Well, you got to learn how to give and take here. Like you can’t just come to him and demand a car ride and not give him anything back for that. you know, you got to figure out what he wants and then, you know, offer that like whatever that is.

So a lot of times, like if she wants a ride to go get a drink and I’m like, no, I don’t feel like leaving the house. It’s not happening. She’ll be like, listen, dude, if you give me a ride, I will buy you a drink. And my son will be like, Done. Cause I don’t got to spend my money. I’m there. So. Right. So like, sometimes she’ll ask for things and she’ll be like mom, I’m so bored.

I don’t want to sit around the house anymore. Come on. I know you’re bored. Let’s go somewhere. Let’s go, go, let’s go get lunch. Let’s go do whatever. Yeah. But I’m bankrolling it.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. kind of like that gray situation where they are learning to negotiate. They just tend to not know how to do it. And Very successfully yet. And so it could look like manipulation from the outset. They do get more sophisticated and more sophisticated with their negotiation as they age.

I’ve noticed, but some of it is like, really like deep seated manipulation. And when it comes to teenagers, like I will call my daughter on that deep seated manipulation. And usually she doesn’t intend it. Like she doesn’t intend to do it.

Brie Tucker: Let’s give an example.

JoAnn Crohn: so it’s like, well, mom, like, you don’t want me sitting around all day. Like you want me to be active and go outside. And you spent all of this time with My brother like why didn’t you come out with me like and using like that kind of guilt and it’s at those times I’m like I call her on it I’m like hey you right there are using guilt to get me to do something that you want to do and that’s not okay And she’ll take that in, and she’ll, of course, be really upset and offended that I would even consider that she was doing that intentionally.

It’s a learning moment. And then she’ll come back and she won’t use that strategy again. So When you do see your kids manipulating you, I think it’s important to know, a lot of the times they don’t intend to do that, like, they don’t know exactly what they’re doing, and they really have to be informed that, hey, this is not how to get what you want, because the other person is going to feel used.

Brie Tucker: Yes. Yes. What? Okay. So like another example of that, that I just came up with, and this will be my last example, I swear on this one, but my daughter, like, we have told her repeatedly that when she goes to work, she needs to take food with her, because she works at a gelato shop, so they don’t have, like, A microwave or they don’t have actual food and you know, a person can’t sustain an eight hour shift of just gelato.

I mean, you could try, but it probably wouldn’t be so great don’t work out. Well, so she tends to get hungry when she’s there and she would tend to text me and be like, mom. I’m so hungry. I don’t have any money though. Will you door dash me some food? Will you bring me some Wendy’s? Will you bring me some food?

JoAnn Crohn: And of course you don’t want her to starve. So of course you feel like horrible if she’s starving.

Brie Tucker: But she would do this even on the weeks she was with her dad. And I would have to say to her, like, I don’t, I’d be like, why didn’t you deal with your dad with this before you left for work? Oh, you know, dad, he won’t give me anything. He just starves us. And I’m like, I find that hard to believe. And she’ll be like, well, you know, there was nothing good there That’s a whole nother podcast episode we’ve talked about with the whole, like, there’s nothing to

JoAnn Crohn: good. There’s

Brie Tucker: There’s nothing to eat and nothing that I want to eat are two completely different arguments here, but I digress. So I mean, it’s had to get to the point where like, I had to tell her when you text me that you’re hungry, it makes me feel guilty.

Like I’m not being a good mom and that I am making you starve. Even though we had food at the house, you know, you’re expected to pack yourself food when you go in for an eight hour shift at work, like, you know, those are the

JoAnn Crohn: We’ve had that conversation multiple times.

Brie Tucker: and she’ll come back and she’ll be like, I wasn’t trying to make you feel bad. I was just bored and I was just joking. And I’ll be like, Well, I’m letting you know that that hurts my feelings and I’m not going to be answering those texts going forward

JoAnn Crohn: That’s a great boundary.

Brie Tucker: right? So, like, I had to finally identify it because I just would get triggered and then I would feel like I had to compensate whether or not she was.

With me or her dad at the time and I would compensate and it was ridiculous and I would be so resentful towards her for it. Sometimes I knew I was resentful. Sometimes I didn’t know I was resentful. I just knew that I was mad and I think that that’s an important thing like notice that you’re getting triggered.

And then articulate like you just said to your daughter, like, I feel guilty when you say that to me and, and that’s not cool.

JoAnn Crohn: That’s not cool. Yeah. It’s, it’s a lesson in human behavior and how You’re not in control of other people’s emotions. You’re not responsible for them, but know that certain words might trigger. And if you want to avoid that trigger, you might want to choose your words more carefully. But sometimes you just want to trigger them.

So it’s good to know the power that you have in your words.

Brie Tucker: And that none of us are perfect. So if it, if it happens, it happens. We have a whole other podcast episode we’re going to do on what to do when it happens. But

JoAnn Crohn: So I hope you’re taking away from this episode, a really easy thing that you can put in place to help you when your kids are asking you for all the things, and you just don’t know what to say and we’re going to put a link to our balance community right under this podcast as well. And until next time, remember the best mom’s a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker: thanks for stopping by