Podcast Episode 306: It’s Not In Your Head: How to Empower Your Kids Against Emotional Abuse Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

What are some signs that there is emotional abuse happening? Number one, you’re always feeling like you’re wrong it’s on you to make things better and if your partner is telling you, it’s your fault you gotta do it better. Even a narcissist abuser who apologizes all the time and says it’s never gonna happen again and then it does.

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host, JoAnn Crohn, joined here by the lovely Brie Tucker. Why, hello, hello, everybody. How are you?  We have a great episode for you today. It is about emotional abuse. And this is such a hard topic to define because I feel like it’s just started coming out in the zeitgeist, like this kind of, uh, Uh, abuse that can happen in terms of manipulation, in terms of making people feel like everything is their fault.

And as we discussed in this interview, Brie, how like we as women were kind of led to believe this was normal in relationships based on some of the 80s movies.  

Yes. Like you’ll often hear me talk about like, so in, in my previous life and my, uh, First marriage. It was definitely a difficult one. And I do know that like now my experience was emotional abuse during my, my marriage.

And  now I’m dealing like, I always felt like there was, um, a reason for that. And. A lot of struggle, a lot of shame because I, I worked in social work. It was my job to help support people. And I supported, I helped numerous, um, women leave an abusive relationship, get the supports they needed, but I didn’t recognize that I needed them myself.

And.  When you, when you realize that something’s off, but you don’t quite know what is off, it makes you feel like you’re crazy. And yeah, and I think that’s a big piece of emotional abuse. Like it doesn’t have to necessarily be at the level that you’re leaving. It could just be something that you’re seeing even happen to you  or to your kids and you’re like, huh.

This doesn’t seem right. The reactions that that they’re having or the or the interactions are having with this person. And that’s what we get into. 

Yes. In this episode, we really like dig into the differences and things you might notice and also things you might feel. So it’s hopefully going to be very interesting.

Very informative for you. I got a lot out of this interview. We were talking to Vickie Lynn. She is a freedom fighter and overcomer rising out of the ashes from 25 years of narcissistic abuse. She is founder CEO and head coach of the survivor center. And she coaches in high conflict, co parenting, and she’s a divorce coach reaching back into the fire to help other single mamas sharing custody.

With an abuser and Vickie is the proud single mom of a 14 year old and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Vickie  You want mom life to be easier. That’s why It’s our goal to our mission is to raise more self sufficient and independent kids and we’re going to have fun doing it. We’re going to help you delegate and step back.

Each episode will tackle strategies for positive discipline, making our kids more responsible and making our lives better in the process. Welcome to the no guilt mom podcast, 

Vickie, I love your setup behind you with the mirror and the floral.  Thanks. Where are you joining us from? 

So I’m on the East Coast and I don’t share a location. I have a protective order against my ex, so. 

Okay. Yeah. That’s, let’s get into that a little bit, the story behind that, because the work you do now, you are educating women about emotional abuse and how to protect kids from emotional abuse.

Um, and you have quite a story behind that. Can you share your personal story about how you got into this work? 

Sure. Take care. So as is very common.  Once I realized that I was in an emotionally abusive relationship in addition to other abuses that were going on, I didn’t leave right away. In fact, then I got pregnant.

So after having my daughter, she really was the catalyst that woke me up. And probably before I was even feeling worthy of myself to have a healthy life, I knew she was worthy. And I wanted her to grow up being the person God created her to be, and I knew I had to leave. So there was an, there was a moment where she was one years old, she was in her high chair, and the ex had berated me verbally about something, who knows what it was, probably something dumb.

And he left to go to work and I started crying and I was slumped in the corner and I see my little girl lean over her high chair and look at me and just watch me. And I thought I’m done. There’s no way I’m going to continue this and have her grow up like that. But as many people know, once you leave any kind of abusive relationship with children, you have to share the children. 

And so then my story took a huge turn into. Okay. Now we’re going to navigate co parenting and co parenting in and of itself is like a perfect world. People just didn’t get along and now they have their kid’s best interest at heart. And so let’s make some compromising, you know, agreements, but that’s not the case when you’re working with someone who’s a narcissist and you know, an abuser fill in the blank, whatever word you want to use there.

And so the next, you know, four years sharing custody with her dad was a nightmare and my daughter suffered greatly, not from physical abuse, but from all the emotional and psychological and even spiritual abuse where she, she became a people pleaser. She was chasing after bullies on the playground. She couldn’t do things good enough.

And so she had this perfectionism growing in her, uh, playing Legos with her was a nightmare because if one little Lego fell apart, like she fell apart. And so I say all that because when she was suffering, I realized I had to rip the muzzle off my mouth and figure out how to help her and do it in a way that wasn’t going to be so disparaging her dad.

Yeah. Because at that age, and most kids will go talk to their parent and tell them everything.  

Yep. Yeah. 

And so that’s sort of what started the whole thing. I mean, I could talk for like three hours about my story, but like, that’s what started the coaching business came from my victories when I was co parenting.

And when I saw changes in my daughter. And then, you know, how things progressed from there. And now we just live an incredibly beautiful life despite the abuse. 

Now, um, when I’ve seen friends go through these situations before, emotional abuse  is a very hard thing to pinpoint because a lot of people Will almost talk themselves out of being emotionally abused.

Like they’ll bring it on themselves and say, no, this is all my fault. I should have done it better. I should have done it this way. And even the ex will say like, this is all your fault. Like, I can’t believe like you’re doing this. So what are some signs that women should look out for that there is emotional abuse happening?

I think you hit it. Number one, which is you’re always feeling like you’re wrong. Yeah. Always feeling like it’s on you to make things better.  That’s probably one of the number one things that you can know something’s imbalanced in the relationship. And especially if your partner is telling you, it’s your fault, you’re to blame.

You got to do it better. I mean, Brie, would you agree with that? 

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like I, we’re sitting here, like I’m, I’m trying so hard. Cause one of the things that you said a minute ago, that really still resonates so strongly with me when I went through my divorce was, so in Arizona, you have to go through a parenting course.

I imagine like most States are like that. There’s some kind of a parenting course you have to go through when there are children involved in the divorce. And what I remember being hammered so hard was parent alienation. You can’t say anything negative about the other parent because that could be grounds for parent alienation.

Like you’re, you’re turning the children against the other parent. And in my case, I definitely, I didn’t even know that. The terms emotional abuse or financial abuse. And those were things that my, that was brought up to me by my lawyer when I was going through things and I’m like, then I start reading about it and I’m like, Oh my God, that is 100 percent where I was.

Everything was always my fault. I always had to be the one to bend, apologize. 100 percent like a environmentally engineering things so that. He wouldn’t blow up. He wouldn’t get upset. He wouldn’t lash out. The kids wouldn’t suffer and have to have him be angry. And, but I didn’t, but you don’t recognize it when you’re in it.

You just don’t. 

So you, sorry, you basically have a, no, not, sorry. I’m just, I’m adding on and some asking some more questions of this situation, just trying to define it for any listeners out there who are like, but you don’t understand it is my fault. Um, what it sounds like the missing point part of that relationship is you don’t have a partner who accepts accountability for their own actions.

They put everything on you. Would that be right? I 

mean, I’d say yes, but also you, you have the flavor of a narcissist or an abuser who will apologize all the time and say, it’s never going to happen again, you know, and then it does. 

Right. There’s that cycle, like they call it the honeymoon phase, right?

Yeah. Where you, when you finally get to the point where you, you bring up that these things don’t feel right, they, They may apologize or they might just say, okay, I won’t do that anymore. I’ll do better. And 

they’ll appease you for a while, make you think it’s all good. And then it goes bad again. 

Yeah. Yeah.

Any kind of like, I call it, it’s like a squeeze and release of your muscles. So the toxic Cycle is you have that squeeze of the pain. Something is going wrong or bad or you’re feeling bad. There was a blow up or he did something harmful. And then there’s the release where either you just go to your corners and you kind of gather yourself back up.

And then perhaps there’s that release where they come back and it’s all romance and flowers and everything’s great. until the next incident. 

Now, I have a question about that. So, and I’m wondering, Joanna, if you’re thinking the same thing. Every relationship has its ups and downs. Every relationship has goods and bads.

How do you determine when this whole squeeze and release type situation you’re talking about is happening and it’s not just your average conflict? 

Well, that’s a good question because I actually thought about this the other day that one of the things That we don’t show our kids when we’re in this type of relationship is healthy conflict resolution. 

Right. So I think you will, you would know that something is off. First of all, if you have any ability to feel it in your gut, something’s not right. He’s pushing a boundary that maybe you don’t even know it’s a boundary, but like there’s some kind of line and it’s being pushed repeatedly and you’re uncomfortable.

But really, I think it’s the fact that it happens again and again and again. Nothing’s getting better, no matter what you do. That, that would be my answer. 

Can you give me an example of like a boundary that may be pushed? Something you’ve seen in like your clients or heard? 

Gosh, I mean, I have so many examples.

I’ll use one during co parenting. 

Yes, please tell me. We, we all know that there are people listening to this podcast episode going, Yeah. Is this? Maybe. Is this what’s 

happening? I know. I know. So, gosh, it’s, it’s so huge to answer this question. I’m going to give you one from when I was in college. dating him.

Okay. 

And then one from when I was co parenting. How about that? 

Okay. 

So dating, I would tell him this person’s important to me, a friend. Okay. And then he would come alongside and pretend that person was important to him. And then I would say, okay, I’m going out with this person for dinner. Okay. And all of a sudden there was a problem.

So it wasn’t a boundary per se, but it was here’s something that’s important to me. He knows it. He knows it’s an important relationship and now he’s coming into sabotage. So now he’s like, well, where are you going when you come in home? And it would be a prop. So now it’s a problem for me to have a relationship with this person. 

So already it’s not, not necessarily a boundary, but a problem. Okay. It was something that’s controlling  

your relationships with other people. 

Yeah. Okay. One of the big things I have to relate to this now that I’m out of it, I can be like one thing I used to do. I would talk to my sister on the phone and she would often call me on her drive home from work or at the end of the night.

And my ex would say like, you know,  I don’t appreciate it when your sister calls in the evening, this should be our time together. And you really need to limit that. That, that’s, that’s being disrespectful to our relationship. And I would go, Oh my God, is it? It must be like, I had no idea. Like he’s right. Oh, that is disrespectful to our time together.

Me speaking to my sister and that like that’s red flag, not normal. Right. But they, but they convince you that they are right. And that you’re doing something wrong or disrespectful to them. So you’re trying to appease. 

Yeah. That’s a hard, hard thing. And I want to hear about how you saw it in parenting, Vickie, right after this. 

So we’re talking about signs to know if you are in a relationship with emotional abuse and Vickieee you’re about to share Something that happened to you after you married your ex and in a parenting situation 

Yeah, so this really was when we were separated And I had a boundary because most of us that are in a relationship with someone who is an abuser in some way or controlling, we have very weak boundaries or we don’t know how to have boundaries.

Right. Cause you’ve been told that they’re bad boundaries, that they’re bad to have. 

100%. Yes. They hurt him or they’re disrespectful or something. Yes. And so you’re right. Exactly. Right. So when I was co parenting with him, so I was separate, you know, thinking like I had escaped with my daughter and like things were better and I was free, but really I was not free.

The example is I’m bringing my daughter to him at for a custody exchange for his time. And I had told him, you know, we’re done, like we’re done. And yet he continued to embrace me at exchanges. Give me a hug and my arms were by my side and he’s still putting his arms around me. Hmm. Yeah. That sounds like, well, you know, it should be easy just to tell him, no, well, not really.

Not when you have this history of abuse and you don’t want to have conflict in front of your child. 

Exactly. And also like you’re trying to teach your child about love and like you’re handing them over to somebody, you don’t want them to be afraid of him. That person. Exactly. Right. Me too. 

Yes. 

Puts 

you in a, in a position.

Yes. 

It is such a tricky scenario too, because at the same time you realize that the time your child spends with this person is not beneficial to your child, and Having to navigate that is just, it feels impossible to me going in now to like having the kids involved and kids spending time, uh, and kids getting on the other side of emotional abuse, what are some things that.

People see in their kids to like give them a red flag. The situation isn’t going well for them. 

I think one of the number one things or signs that they’re being emotionally abused is they over apologize.  So they apologize for breathing. They apologize for tripping, like things that are not reasons to apologize.

That’s a huge red flag that. They’re being emotionally abused, seeking to get your approval. Now that’s tricky because kids, most kids want their parents approval, right? But it could be, you could, you will notice, I guess the best thing I can say around this is as a mom, you have a gut, you have instincts and you will know, Oh, she’s doing this and it’s so fun.

And she’s trying to get me to like it and blah, blah, blah. But then it’s like over the top. And you get that feeling in your stomach, like something’s off, something’s not right now. Especially if you know that he emotionally abused you, that he controlled you, that he disparaged you, you know, that he, um, you know, tried to basically dismantle your strength.

So you can kind of know that he probably is trying to do that to your child or children.  

That’s so interesting. So over apologizing just for things that they shouldn’t even apologize for and like trying eagerly to please and get approval. 

Yes. 

And I know this is so different, but I, I, I’m also talking to all the people pleasers out there.

Like how is the behavior you’re seeing in your kids different from that of a, you know, general people pleasing behavior? 

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think whenever kids are really trying to people please, there is some unmet emotional need. So you could have a, you could be a great mom, but maybe there’s something that your kids is not getting, whether it’s from you or from the other parent, something.

And so I would just say, ask them some questions, you know, start having conversations with them and hearing from them rather than you just deciding. Let me just, you know, tell them this, teach them that, ask questions and it’s the same goes for when you’re dealing with kids that are being abused in any way emotionally or otherwise is asking lots of questions because one of the things that they don’t have is autonomy and they don’t have what’s called agency, which is control over their life and most kids don’t in general.

But they have less than any normal quote unquote normal kid does.  

So what, what I hear you saying is the symptoms are pretty much the same as general people pleasing, but the triggers for those symptoms are different, which is why you really have to get from your kids exactly what’s going on. Yes. Cause like as a, as a child who was a people pleaser, I was a people pleaser.

And I also see my son have these people pleasing behaviors. And the things you were describing is my son to a T over apologizing, seeking for my approval. And I have had conversations with him. Anxiety runs in the family and his. Is a result of him just saying like he’s not doing things well enough and he’s like beating himself up And it’s nothing anybody says to him He says it comes like from within and so I think it’s a point important distinguishing thing To make because I know a lot of our listeners out there struggle with the anxiety as well So if you’re listening to this right now, you have kids with anxiety.

There is this big Very different thing. It’s the cause of it, not so much the symptoms itself. 

Yeah. And you know what else? There was a couple other things that I feel like I would observe in my kids and by, and by all means, Vickie, like pop in here on what your thoughts are. Like I would notice that, uh, My kids, when they came home, they were just much more quiet, reserved.

They would watch to see what was going on before they would interact. They often didn’t want to leave the home when they came back from their debts. They just wanted to come home and just stay home and not really go anywhere, not really do anything. And these were kids that used to be pretty social, outgoing, active kids.

And another thing too, I would see is that.  They just,  their emotional stability, their resilience wasn’t as strong as it was before. It was almost like, you know, when you’ve had a really bad day, you know, you’ve just had a really bad day. Things have been like going wrong all day long. By the end of the day, you’re just emotionally exhausted.

And that trigger for a meltdown is much easier to get to. I feel like I would see that a lot as well. Like these emotional outbursts that, and kids have emotional outbursts. We all know that, like we, so do adults, we all have that, but it just seemed like it came much easier, it came much more often when, when they were first adjusting for like those first 48 to 72 hours of coming back.

Cause we did, we did week on and week off in our household. 

Yeah. A hundred percent. Because to your point, when kids are being emotionally abused and they’re at their other parent’s house, they have to keep it together. Yeah. And so when they come home to you and you’re the safe place, not just physically, but emotionally safe, that’s when the meltdown happens.

So yes, that’s absolutely a good sign to, not a good sign, but a sign that something’s going on. Because their nervous system has been in fight or flight the whole time they were with the emotional abusive parent. And so they come home and they have to let it out somehow, right? So often it is meltdowns,  right?

And what you just described also is like, they’re like zoned out. The way that a lot of us describe it is it takes us a couple of days to quote, get our kids back where they’re back to their normal personalities. 

Yeah. 

So yes, that’s another sign. 

Right. And I feel like as parents, or especially as moms, do we not all collectively ask ourselves when our kids have meltdowns with us and not with other people, what am I doing wrong?

Oh, it must be right. Right. We always say, and there are, there are times when it is that we’re not holding firm boundaries and stuff like that, that, that is certainly a possibility, but I think when it happens a lot, and then you have other people asking you that, or especially the other I think The other parent.

And I think this is true like in a relationship where you’re still married, you’re still actively with that partner,  as well as the ones where you’re divorced and you’re not actively with them, where they’re like, well, it must be you because they don’t do this with me. Oh, and that would be even like perpetuating it, right?

So Vickie, I am curious.  What do you recommend people do when, when they are faced with that comment from their co parent? And I want to hear about it, Vickieee, right after 

this. So Vickieee, you were just about to tell us, what do you do when your kids are having meltdowns at your house and then your ex is asking you, well, what did you do wrong?

It must be you. What’s going on? 

Well, the name of your podcast is so perfect for this question because the guilt that we all as moms feel, we all know that guilt. For whatever the issue is, situation. Now you’re adding on guilt that you don’t have to live with this emotional abuse any longer, but your kids have to, and you’re not there to buffer or shield them.

Right. So the guilt will go from like level 10 guilt to level a thousand because of that. So 

somehow it’s still your fault, even though you’re not with the person anymore. 

Right. Right. Right. And everything’s great at his house. And what’s wrong with you? Because they’re having problems with you. But when they go to him, they’re angels.

Like that’s the message you’re going to get, right? 

This is something I’ve heard from so many friends who have this going on. It’s like you’re in the home. Like it has. Yes. Yes. 

And there’s nothing that you can say to a person who is being abusive. That’s going to make any sense, make any difference or placate them.

So really it, you kind of have to bypass and not necessarily answer that question directly. Okay. What I think the best advice is to, first of all, you have to check yourself because the guilt you feel could overtake you. And then if someone else is coming in saying it’s your fault. Yeah. And so I always start off by advising, you know, that a mom really works on renewing her mind and the fact that she’s giving her kids a safe home, emotionally safe home for whatever time they’re with her.

Mm hmm. Like she’s got to start there and then from there you can start to look at what, what things can we do to mitigate the meltdowns? What things can we do to help and coach, teach them coping mechanisms, right? So I answered your question, but I went around it because really there’s no direct answer.

It’s, you’ve got to start with alleviating that extra guilt you feel. And focusing on knowing you’re giving them an emotionally safe home. That’s the place to start. 

Basically, you have to start with you to make sure that you are the strong harbor that they could come into after they’re in this taxing situation.

And you touched a little bit on teaching kids resiliency and these emotional coping skills. What are other ways like moms can empower their kids to Really survive against this emotional abuse 

so much of what I teach in my courses and coaching has to do with this particular question and What I realized is, you know I didn’t go from  being a doormat and a people pleaser and in an emotionally abusive relationship To all of a sudden standing up to him.

It didn’t right like I had to incrementally get there and so do our kids So I don’t, so the answer isn’t teach your kids to stand up to their dad and use their voice. That might be the ultimate goal. That’s not the initial goal. 

Yeah. 

So. Right, Brie, do you agree? 

Oh yeah, I’m laughing because, like, in my scenario, like, my, I’ve been divorced for seven years now.

And seven years of therapy, with, for my, for my kids over the court, in and out, right? Five different therapists, and every single one has had the same goal. Teach the kids to talk to their dad. Teach the kids to be able to talk to their dad. And it’s exhausting seeing that and never really making progress.

Like one of them is starting to make progress with a new therapist that they’re with and it’s fantastic. I love it. I’m so proud. My heart is bursting. But it’s also I just want to be like, damn it guys, this has been seven years. What do we have to do to make that progress? And it feels like to, to other people, like they’ll ask the same question, right?

Why can’t they just, why can’t they? I don’t understand why they can’t, it must be a problem with, then all of a sudden it starts to turn into like, it must be a problem with them and it’s not. It’s so what’s. 

What’s the first goal then, if it’s not to talk to the parent? 

So to me, the first goal that I started with my daughter and I teach, um, other moms to do is boost their self esteem, their confidence outside of dad, you know, like, so, okay.

So for example, you know, one of the things that emotional abuse teaches you, unfortunately, is that your voice doesn’t matter. 

Yeah. So 

that goal of, Standing up to the dad, if the dad’s the abuser, right? Standing up to him is like the ultimate, it’s not the start because you know, if you stood up to him, you’re going to get, you know, a barrage of verbal diarrhea.

And so, so are the kids. So they’re going to, so they’re going to be like, well, why bother? Right. So for me, I started to teach my daughter that her voice mattered. That meant things in our, in our house. So giving her options. What are we having for dinner? Which sounds so like not important, but it is because then I had listened to her opinion and I would, then we would do it.

And this is like you built. So her opinion started to matter in our home. Okay. Okay. Now her voice is mattering. Then I started to go to like Starbucks and have her go to the barista and ask for a napkin, ask for a straw where she would not, she would have clung to my side because she was so anxious.  And so then I just started to, cause I knew that the barista is going to be like, Oh, she’s so cute.

Here’s your straw. So it’s silly. Then her voice, her brain’s making the connection. My voice matters. Here’s a result. It’s positive. 

Yeah. Yes. That’s excellent. Cause at first I was like, when you build kids self esteem that they matter outside their parents, you think your first thought goes, okay, hobbies, what skills do they have?

What are they into right now? And how could they build that?  You don’t hear about the insidious nature of things where if they’re in a.  that then dad starts to tear down and tell them that they’re not good at the skill. And here’s a kid wanting to please their father that they automatically get out of those things that they, that gives them value and gives them strength and It’s so, so difficult.

So I love those easy examples of just having them go to like a barista and make them little moments that you can control outside of their time with dad. 

So boost their self confidence. What’s another thing that parents can do to help empower their kids? 

So I also started working with my daughter to identify, I’ll say bullies, but really it was emotional abuse in the movies we were watching, in the TV shows we were watching.

Really? 

Oh. The books that we were reading. This, and honestly, this just came out of necessity. You know what I mean? You’re a mom and you’re doing all the things and you’re at your wits end. And I always say it kind of was like, just came out of the sky, you know, like you just try things and it worked. So we were watching, you know, Disney movie.

We’re watching, let’s use Rapunzel, it’s like the ultimate example. But emotionally abusive parent, yeah, emotionally abusive mom.  And like, I mean, to the extreme, but we would watch the movie and then I’d ask her questions as we were playing afterwards. So like not grill her, but playing, you know, what do you think about Rapunzel?

Like, you know, what do you think she felt and what do you think about the mom? And we would just have conversations and I just, it helped her get in touch with what did she think? What, what was mom telling her? Right? Mm-Hmm. . What did she think? And then I would affirm what she thought and felt, and then that just started to build her. 

I kind of, it’s like her BS meter.  her. I love 

it. Yeah. And her ability too, which needs built in everybody. Yes. Yes. 

Right. The ability to see that there’s bs, there’s red flags, but we’re not using those terms.  And it just grew from there. I mean, it just kept going to where, you know, a couple of years later, we moved to a new neighborhood and this girl was befriending her.

And after like the first day or two, she came to me and she goes, I don’t like what she’s saying. It’s a red flag. Now, at that point we had talked about red flags, but I mean, you’re like, Oh, 

my heart. I’m so proud of the language is amazing. Exactly. Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah.  And so these are skills for life. So you go into the workplace, you’re going to need these skills.

Like, so these are skills for life. And so the whole point is you teach them outside of their dad first, get them solid. And they are so smart, they will start to realize and come to you and say, Oh, you know, I think dad lied to me the other day. Or do you think dad’s lying? Or, you know, they’re going to come to you with these revelations because you’ve built them up in other places. 

So they’re like starting to realize themselves exactly what’s going on and how that situation. Is playing out in terms of what they’re doing. That’s interesting.  

The full thing, but they start 

to get clues. Yes. Yeah. They start to get clues. What would you say if, um, just people listening out there and they’re not in an emotional abuse situation, but they’re pretty sure that their friend may be in an emotional, abusive relationship.

How can friends help other women to support them in this situation? 

Well, what I’ll say is. One of the biggest things for me that woke me up every time this happened was a friend who I used to lament to and tell her the problems and right over and over. She just looked at me one time and said, I really can’t help you anymore.

There’s nothing I haven’t said already.  And even though that sounds like she wasn’t being supportive, it actually was a big, huge aha for me because that meant this is not going, this shouldn’t keep going. Um, There should be a resolution. There should be a fix and what everything I’ve done at this point hasn’t fixed it.

So I might need to look somewhere else. That’d be one thing. 

Yeah. 

What would you say? 

She didn’t come right out and say, you know, I think that you’re in an abusive relationship because  you probably would have been like, no, no, he doesn’t, right. I’m not getting hit. No, I’m fine. I don’t know what that is. And it’s sometimes like, it’s, it’s a bit of an embarrassment, I think.

Like, I know, I know that in my case, I had. I had several friends that would tell me, Brie, your relationship is not healthy.  Somebody should not do that. They should not treat you like that. Like sometimes there’ll be phone calls that would come in and where I like, I’m out on a playdate with a friend of mine and the phone call would come in and my, my ex husband would be like, I’m home.

Where are you and the kids? And I’m like, Oh, well, we’re at the park. We’re at, you know, we’re at a park with Jen right now. And he’d be like, well, you need to come home because. We should be having dinner in like half an hour. And I’d be like, Oh, I’m so sorry. And I would hang up the phone. I’m like, we got to go.

Yeah. 

Why? Oh, because my husband came home early. I didn’t know he was going to, and now I have to go make dinner because it’s going to be late if it’s not there. She’s like, that’s not normal. And you would think that in that case, like that’s where you kind of get embarrassed. You kind of withdraw because you’re like, Oh, well, I know that they don’t think it’s normal, but this is my normal. 

And there’s a point where finally, when everybody keeps telling you normal, isn’t normal, that you’re like, Oh crap. I think I got lost in that logic already. Now I’m all like, Whoa. But 

it’s like, normal, isn’t normal. Cause I mean, you, you go into relationships with this idea of what love is and how like it should be romantic and wonderful.

And those things exist. You’ve heard me say this. The eighties ruined us. And so did John Hughes. That’s where I’m pulling this information from, Brie.  I’ll cite my source, Brie Tucker.  John Hughes kept teaching us that we could change the bad boy. It don’t happen.  Yeah, you don’t change him. Oh my gosh, I had so many, like, thoughts about, like, changing guys and be like, Oh, a bad guy.

Oh, but like, if he really loves you, he can change.  Yeah. And that’s the message that you got from 90s movies or 80s movies most of all. Either way. Either way. Yeah. It’s a hard, hard line in emotional abuse because the, even the things we saw in popular media, it was mostly emotional abuse that we were meant to normalize into our relationship.

Yeah. So there’s no wonder that women are stuck in these things. Oh my gosh. Yeah. For sure. So what is something that you’re looking forward to, Vickieee? What’s something exciting going on in your life? 

So I mean, personally, I literally wake up every day and thank God that I’m free still. Every day don’t have to walk on eggshells anymore, and I hope I never lose that gratitude, but professionally, we have begun a membership for women who are co parenting with someone who’s abusive.

And so I’m excited about that. It is a community of other women that support each other. And I’m able to coach in there a couple of times a month that people can ask their questions. And it’s just a really great place because for women to receive support, because this can feel very lonely. And like you’re on an Island and you’re out on a play date with other moms, Brie, tell me if you relate and you’re going through hell.

Trying to help your kids, you know, you know, build them up in this abuse. And the mom’s talking about redoing your kitchen and you want to throat punch her because meanwhile your kid is like having major 10 meltdowns every time they come home. So this community I’m excited about because it gives moms a place who are dealing with this to go with their kids.

Other moms who understand. Excellent. That sounds much needed. It’s 

finding your community, finding a place where like people can understand and can relate and that can be hard. 

Well, thank you so much, Vickieee. You’ve given us such insight into emotional abuse and especially how we can protect our kids from it.

And we thank you so much. Thank you for 

having 

me. 

Wow. I really. I have had a lot of mic drop moments following Vickie’s Instagram. And I just have to say one thing that she said in that episode that was a huge light bulb to me was she talked about how you can make your place a safe harbor. And I think that was what I, I had to hear because I kept thinking that it was my job to protect my kids and it is my job.

It is still my job to help protect my children and help. Lead them into a life where they have knowledge and skills and they can be happy and healthy. But you had to let go of the fact that you can’t, you can only control what you can control. And that was like, and I, and I know you’ve heard me talk about that.

Like that was a big thing. There’s so much guilt involved when you leave a relationship that is unhealthy. Because you’re happy for you, like, I remember the first, okay, I, sorry, I’m on like a soapbox here. No, please, I mean, this is your experience, so please share. I know, right? Like, this episode is like a bit of a therapy thing for me, like, I remember when we finally decided to get divorced, which was after, After my third request for a divorce, but when we finally decided to get divorced that night, I go and I’m taking a shower, getting ready for bed, trying to process it all.

Cause it happened like so quickly. It was like literally a conversation of, you know, I think we’re having like some serious problems here. We should either go to therapy or we need to consider getting a divorce. And my ex was like, Oh, I’ll take a divorce. And I’m like, wow, that was.  The third time we had had a conversation over the course of our 10 year marriage, 16 years together, where I had asked to leave and it was the first time he didn’t fight me on it.

And I’m in the shower and I’m thinking to myself, Oh my God, this is really going to happen. And my first thought, JoAnn, was,  I could finally cut my hair. How messed  up is that? Because like, he would like, get so angry at me if I even got a trim. Because it was constantly like, your hair needs to look a certain way.

I need you to look a certain way. I need you to be a certain way. And I think that’s when it finally got to me that like, it was messed up. And this was going to be good, but it was also going to be super scary. Yeah.  And it was, it was the worst time of my life trying to leave somebody that was used to controlling every aspect of my life.

That person did not like going through a divorce with me because suddenly I found a voice. And then I was trying to teach our kids to have a voice and that was not well received. 

No, no, no one’s 

allowed to have a voice, but best person. Yeah. And, and I had so many people that tried to tell me for so many years that it wasn’t healthy.

And I kept telling them that, well, you know, there’s, there’s good times like you, and I didn’t want to like doubt bad talk my spouse. And I think a lot of us feel like that. Like, we don’t want to bad talk our spouse, but you know, when you’re having multiple people look at you with that raised eyebrow, or when they’re talking about their experiences with their partner and you cannot relate because you’re just like, yeah, my partner would never say nice things like that to me.

My partner would never offer to help. Those are definitely those red flags and, and there are things that we can do to help support our kids in whatever capacity. If it’s, if yours isn’t a co parenting capacity, which we talked about a lot in this episode, but you’re just seeing these kinds of things happening because there’s so many relationships where this can happen.

You can have emotional abuse at work, right? You can have emotional abuse, uh, within your family with extended family members. I mean, we’ve seen this happen so many times in our balance group where people are talking about things and we’re like, okay, this goes beyond your typical conflicts. 

Yeah. This is, this comes to abuse.

This isn’t just a misunderstanding. This person is not  acting appropriately. Right.  It’s a really hard line, especially for women to admit is there because we so want to make everyone happy. And that’s how we’ve been socialized. If someone’s unhappy, like bend over backwards to make sure they’re happy and make sure you’re nice and make sure you’re pleasant and everything.

And so if you’re listening and are having a hard time figuring out like what is appropriate behavior towards you, how you should be treated versus how you are treated, know that it’s just. So complicated. It really, really is. And we hope that this episode has shed a light on some things and maybe you saw some similarities in your own life to it.

But, uh, the most important thing is to take care of you because remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you and we’ll see you next time. 

Thanks for stopping by.