Podcast Episode 302: Your Motherhood Burnout Survival Guide: the 5 Key Components of Relationships Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

Morgan Cutlip: I think how women get lost in motherhood a lot of times is that motherhood in the beginning forces you to put your needs on the back burner because , you kind of yeah. Gotta be there and keep a human alive. And so it’s necessary. But we get locked in where our needs remain on the back burner for a really long period of time.

JoAnn Crohn: Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host JoAnn Crohn here with the lovely Brie Tucker

Brie Tucker: hello, hello, everybody. How are you?

JoAnn Crohn: Today we are talking about relationships relationships with your partner, relationships with your kids, and the relationship with yourself. And the cool thing is, is that our guest has a whole model on it that you could use to like dissect your own relationship, which I always find fun.

Brie Tucker: I loved it. And honestly, like I ran out of room on my paper for notes because I was jotting like, Oh, great quote here. Oh, very quotable there. Oh, oh, oh, this would be a great intro. Like there’s so much info in this episode. It was phenomenal. I cannot, cannot wait to get to meet Morgan again. She’s got her next book coming up and we’ve got some other stuff for chatting with her about so.

JoAnn Crohn: Yes. Well, the whole thing is I come into this interview, I feel like as a book fan. Like I do that with some people where I come in and I’m like, I love your book and let me quote it. I put some quotes right here and I’m like scrolling through my phone notes app. And I did that with her

Brie Tucker: That’s how people can tell that you really, really loved the book.

JoAnn Crohn: I love, I love the book. And it’s funny, like with all my notes, I’m going to share with you guys, if you have trouble remembering what you read, I’m going to share in the outro how I remember what I read from the books, all the books I read. So stay tuned. Stay tuned for that in the outro. But right now, let me introduce you to Morgan Cutlip, PhD.

She holds a PhD in psychology and it’s the author of the new book. Well, in September released book, love your kids without losing yourself five steps to banish guilt and beat burnout. When you are already have too much to do. She’s also a wife and mom of two kids and helps moms master their relationship with themselves and their partner. And we hope you enjoy our interview with Morgan.

JoAnn Crohn: So Morgan I was reading your book and I was shocked to discover that you actually started your parenthood journey where your husband was like all the way across the country. Like tell us about that story and how that occurred.

Morgan Cutlip: Gosh okay, so it’s wild now looking back. So our kids are Effie who the story is about is now 11, which is wild So we’re like in the throes of tweenager hood and our son and Roy is 8. So I became a mom, I was actually pregnant in, right outside of D. C. And my husband had a job where he could kind of work wherever.

And so he was like, let’s move to be closer to family. And I was telling the both of you that I’m from Ohio originally. And I don’t know if you know this, but when you’re from Ohio and you retire, you move to Florida. So my parents, that’s a thing. Yeah, it’s all that part of the country. You retire in Florida. Yeah,

Brie Tucker: goes to vacation and retire. It’s a twofer.

Morgan Cutlip: it’s a thing. It’s a thing. And my parent, my dad was like sort of edging toward retirement, but not, but he bought a house there and he’s like, ah, we’ll just move there. So we’re like, oh, wait, what? Because all our family was back in Ohio. So, we were living outside of DC. I was finishing up internship and we decided we’re going to move to Florida to be close to my family.

I worked with my dad at the time. We wanted support. We, we, I went into motherhood with like. Just completely naive, but I at least knew I wanted people around me that could be part of my village. And so we moved we renovated a house, literally down to one wall. Built it up. We moved into the house when I was nine and some change months pregnant, like about to pop.

Yes. Like I, I went through like our birthing. I’m cr I’m just like, I just, I just didn’t, Know what I was doing. I just didn’t know. I was like, whatever, I’ll be fine. And you know, I went through the birthing classes, like accelerated it in a weekend. And so we finally move into the house. I’m unpacking.

The room is just put together. I end up having Effie is born. And two months later, my husband gets a call that he was offered a job, which is kind of like you take the job or we’re, you know, we’re done offering you jobs kind of thing. So it was like a promotion slash ultimatum. In Southern California.

And I was like, we just had a baby. I’m like freshly postpartum. I feel like my world has literally been flipped upside down. And he’s like, well, I gotta take it. And I’m like, well, I’m not coming right now because there’s no way I’m going to leave my like safety net and go live in some random apartment.

Who knows where in Southern California while we’re trying to find a house and stuff. So from two months to 10 months, he was in California and I was in Florida and we would just, I’d go out there some weekends and he’d come home some weekends, but it changed my entry into motherhood in a pretty dramatic way because we both didn’t know what we were doing. He was not good at jumping in and taking initiative. It felt like our daughter was like kind of a scary baby.

Brie Tucker: I love how you say that so cautiously now. She was kind of a scary baby. I’ll be

Morgan Cutlip: she scared me. I I mean, she’s like the best. I mean, I have like, she’s awesome, but like, she scared me. I, she just was like opinionated immediately. She was kind of colicky. She would just never slept.

She never napped well. And so by the time, you know, it’s sort of like. You kind of go into this, like, survival mode where I feel like I have reached the depths of the internet, like, about sleep and trying to figure things out, and then I found my way, and then when Chad and I kind of reunited in California, he was so uninvolved at that point, and I was such a gatekeeper because I’m like, don’t

Brie Tucker: Yeah. You had a

Morgan Cutlip: Like, I know what’s going on.

JoAnn Crohn: like I have the baby figured out you stay over there. You stay over there. Oh my gosh, when you have a scary baby like that, it is hard. Like my son was also a scary baby. He was a scary baby. We’re like if I left him with my parents or with my in laws, he would cry the entire time I was gone. And when you have a baby like that, you’re almost like afraid also to leave them because you feel like you’re Really hurting the people you leave him, them with as well. It’s the hardest thing

Morgan Cutlip: It’s not worth the stress of it. Yeah, I remember my mom would be like we lived on a little island in Florida and there was like, everything was right there and there was this like a nail salon and she’d be like, go get your nails done. I’ll watch the baby. And I actually don’t like getting my nails done. I find it like, I get really anxious being there. I’m like, this is a waste of my time. But I cannot tell you, like, I, I remember sitting in the chair and getting a text within like, just long enough to put the polish on so it’s wet and being like, you gotta

Brie Tucker: Oh my God.

Morgan Cutlip: out. You know, it was just like, it just wasn’t worth leaving or doing anything at that point. It was just, it was way less stress to just suck it up and be there. So that was my, that was my entry into motherhood. I was like, what is this?

Brie Tucker: Okay, so wait. So when you got your, when you got pregnant with your second, were you like, oh God, not again?

Morgan Cutlip: Well, it’s funny because so I did births with a, with a midwife and so with Effie, she was 10 days early and then Roy was 10 days late and they ended up being like almost the identical weight. So I think they just had to like cook to their finishing point. But I do think there was this part of me that was like emotionally Not ready where I was like holding on and I was not ready have him because I was like I cannot do what happened last time and I think our body really stores that sort of emotional experience and so I Had a complication with my first birth.

My midwife’s like I think it’s not complication. Like I think it’s my husband Like, I don’t think, it’s not, like, I’m not worried about that. I’m worried that, like, it’s gonna suck, kind of like it did the first time around. And after him and I had a, a heart to heart, I mean, I think my water broke, like,

Brie Tucker: it was your heart and what was yeah, what was the

JoAnn Crohn: on for sure.

Brie Tucker: admitting that you’re scared of everything happening again, or

Morgan Cutlip: Yeah, it was kind of like, I was, like, I wasn’t happy with how motherhood began for me. I didn’t like how, you know, I felt alone. And I know it’s a big part circumstantial, like, I have a really great husband. But it’s. You know, also like get in there, dude, like get in there. We’re gonna have two and she’s a handful and I can’t do this alone anymore. And so, it was, pretty much around that stuff. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: And it’s also, you had some other stress going on in your life too. Cause you mentioned four home renovations in four years or something like that. Yeah. Like down to the wall, same renovation kind of

Brie Tucker: your mark or not being on fear factor. It’s all I gotta say I

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah,

Brie Tucker: would have crushed

Morgan Cutlip: no, I’m not, I’m not gutsy with thing with what I eat and things like that. So I am like meat and potatoes. Yeah. Home renovations, it’s, my husband and I kind of thrive. We thrive with a project, and we’re really good, it’s like the Midwest in us, like we are workers, or like manual laborers, so the home renovations are, we’ve gotten to a point where we’re not doing the work ourselves anymore, which is really awesome, it’s much nicer but yeah, we actually did really well during those times of our relationship, and we’ve done So one renovation was with one child and then part of my pregnancy and then the last renovation, they were both toddlers. So, but we did it and my husband was traveling and I like managed a lot of the, the work and yeah, we got it done. I don’t know. I don’t know.

JoAnn Crohn: yeah, you’ve had the life experience for dealing with relationships and I know you also have the academic experience and like your family situation is so interesting to me, Morgan, because you actually teach a model that you’re doing. Dad developed and the story of you going to the library and helping him find the research papers to prove his theory was just like, Oh my gosh, this has been in your life forever. So tell us a little bit about the relationship attachment model and how it started with your dad.

Morgan Cutlip: Yeah. So my dad went back to school when I was probably like around four or five and it’s funny cause he, it took him a long time to finish. Cause I think he graduated when I was in high school, but yeah, he went back to school too. He got a couple of masters and a doctorate in psychology. We actually ended up, I don’t think they knew this when they accept, I don’t know if they did when they accepted me, but I went to the exact same program that he went to and we ended up having one teacher in common, which is really weird. 

Yeah, I like attended a class when I was about six and she taught it and then I had her as professor and she was teaching the same stuff, which is crazy. But I was like, I remember what you were drawing on the board but yeah, he he went back to school, but he’d already had a lot of experience he actually was a really good teacher Back, way back when he was a pastor in a church, he did a lot of counseling when he was there as, as you end up doing.

And then he wanted the degrees and he wanted to have his own practice. And so he went back to school and he taught for a while. And also a lot of his practice was with couples and couples who were like going through really difficult time in, their relationship. And he started just like, he, he’s like, The nutty professor is how I describe my dad.

Like he’s just a really good thinker. And so he started seeing these patterns in people’s relationships and how they develop and something that’s not talked about very much in the relationship education space is how you grow a developing relationship. So the pace of a relationship is where he kind of like focused his career, but he developed this model of attachment, the relationship attachment model.

My book is around it. And it’s basically a. visual of a relationship. You know, we talk about in the relationship space, a lot of concepts that’s like we intuitively know, but we actually can’t define. So you’re like, Oh, what’s love? I know what love is, but what is it? You know, what’s a relationship? What is it made of?

What does it look like? How do you, you know, we, we don’t really have definition for these abstract things. And And that’s what this model does. It gives a visual definition of a relationship and five bonds or like attaching kind of dynamics that occur in every single relationship. And so

JoAnn Crohn: And I thought that this visual was so interesting and so easy to define. I actually talked about it this morning in our live, in our membership community with our people. And I can’t wait to get into it. We’re going to go through those five bonds right after this. So, Morgan, you’re talking about this relationship attachment model, and there are five components to it. What are those five components, and how do they define a relationship?

Morgan Cutlip: So they’re no trust, rely, commit, and touch. And so, this model is actually the basis for all of our courses. We have several courses because it applies to every single relationship we have in life. So, yeah. The easiest one to apply it to is actually a relationship with a partner. So if you think about, if you’re in a relationship and just kind of imagine, so I’ll like paint the picture for you.

Imagine an equalizer on a stereo where all the levels kind of move up and down, but there are five sort of next to each other. And know is how well you know each other, how deeply you know each other. You know, we know, The easiest way to describe this is after kids, when you’re like two ships passing in the night, you feel like, right, my husband just got home from a trip last week, and then he left today, and I don’t even feel like I spoke to him, like we’re very much, you know, it’s just go, go, go, go, go, very much out of the know.

The next one is trust. Trust is how, is basically our opinion or our belief in someone. That one actually can unpack and becomes really powerful to understand in our relationships. But it’s your opinion of somebody. A lot of times we fill in the gaps. It’s based on a little bit of reality, like the facts that we know about somebody, but it’s based more on our opinion.

About what we know, so we actually construct a lot of our trust in somebody rely is how you meet each other’s needs, how you express those needs, show up for each other, commit is like the holding force in a relationship, persevering, it’s how you keep promises in a relationship or to yourself, as I talk about in my book.

And then touch is like the affection and intimacy and that can be through words or through physical touch. And so the idea is, is that each of these are bonding. In and of separately. But also when you arrange these levels in different configurations, it sort of creates a picture of what’s going on in the relationship, where vulnerabilities exist, and then you can be targeted and how you manage that relationship.

And so that’s a big kind of like horn we’ve been tooting or blow. I don’t know how to say it, but like a long time, which is that. People can have really great relationship skills, but if you don’t manage your relationship well in both partners, then that’s when relationships start

Brie Tucker: I can see that.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, I love that visual because also in the book, you compare it to your relationship with your child and most importantly, your relationship with yourself. And I think that that is one of the most like impactful parts of your book because So often like we don’t know ourselves and what triggers us.

We have all of these opinions about what we do, what we should do, what we shouldn’t do as moms. That really makes that level go down. So I wanted to go a little like deeper into the no category, specifically with like your relationship with your kids and the story of your husband, giving Roy a bath and Effie in the shower.

Brie Tucker: can tell this is going to be a good one already. Let me, let me get my popcorn.

Morgan Cutlip: My kids love this story. They it’s pretty fast story, but it was just I think it was cooking dinner I think is what happened is I was cooking dinner upstairs and I asked my husband to give our son a bath He was probably like, I don’t know three if he’s probably five in the shower So they’re all in the same bathroom and I just hear him screaming like crazy screaming and he had I mean he to this day he still has a crazy scream, but Screaming I’m like Oh my gosh, like where’s Chad? He’s probably in the bathroom. Is he in the bathroom while he’s giving Roy a bath? Or like what’s going on? Did he cut himself? Was my razor in there? Like I’m going through all these worst case scenarios. So I come running down the stairs, running into the bathroom and he’s like, my butt feels spicy. And I was like,

Brie Tucker: We’re good. That is a never a good statement to hear.

Morgan Cutlip: So we use all that Dr. Bronner’s peppermint soap. Do you know what I’m talking about? We do not use that on the kids, especially when they were really little. And Chad apparently didn’t know that. And so he, bathed Roar’s butt in peppermint soap and it felt spicy. And it’s funny because Effie is like, she’s so funny. She like opens the shower door and she’s like, ugh, dad used the peppermint soap on his butt. Like, she was like so annoyed that Chad didn’t know. I’m like, how do you know to be annoyed already?

Brie Tucker: And how old was she again?

Morgan Cutlip: five. I’m trying to think. I’m really bad. Like I don’t use the mental energy to do math. I think she’s probably five or six.

Brie Tucker: say, thank God she didn’t use it on her eyes or any other body parts. Oh my

Morgan Cutlip: She knows,

JoAnn Crohn: she knows, Dad did not.

Morgan Cutlip: dad to not. Yeah. And it’s a, it’s a silly story, but the, and, and I tell like a much deeper story actually about Roy in that chapter later on. But the idea is, is that like. In order to love someone well, you have to know them deeply. And part of how you’re in the know with people is like you’re around them a lot.

Like that’s one way, that’s why I, you know, I know that they say like kids feel safest around their moms a lot of times, right? they kind of like unravel when they’re around their moms or they prefer their moms. And I know that there’s all sorts of reasons why. And I believe one of the reasons why is because we know them so well.

So, well, we know their preferences. We know like what triggers them. We know all this stuff. And so Chad, just, because he travels so much, he, he is more out of the know naturally than I am, even though he works to stay in the know, it just happens. And so it’s

Brie Tucker: my God.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, the no thing is so interesting because I think it really illustrates how so many moms feel, well, so many women feel this animosity towards their partner a lot of the times and like, feel like they don’t know what to do because they actually don’t know what to do. They haven’t been around. Like we have all these little things about our kids.

That we put into practice every single day. And it’s part of our mental load. So like that no is so important, but also you go into like how we also need to know ourselves. And one of the big things I saw in your book, the quote you have is when you care for yourself in meaningful ways, your relationships will naturally shift even if the other person does nothing differently. And part of knowing yourself is then figuring out exactly what you need. so I want to hear your opinion and advice on that of knowing yourself better right after this.

So what are some questions that moms can ask themselves, Morgan, to help them know themselves better and know what triggers them and know what they need in particular?

Morgan Cutlip: there’s a lot, and there’s a lot in my book, and like, I do want your listeners to get my book, but,

JoAnn Crohn: definitely.

Morgan Cutlip: but let me just go with one question that I think can be really powerful that kind of goes into lots of the different areas in my book, and the question is, the type of mom I thought I’d be is. And I think that’s a question that helps moms really start to unpack, not just how they know themselves, which is an important one, but also how they unpack what they expect of themselves. And a little bit of their, like, sort of like their mothering experience.

I think that, that, that question sounds very superficial, like, okay, yeah, whatever. But if you actually look at what that question can help you discover, it’s actually quite deep. We are learning how to be parents, but specifically how to be mothers from the moment that we’re born. How we’re cared for, our relationship with our mother, our lack of relationship with our mother.

All of these things live inside of us. And a lot of it does not come out until we become a mother later on, and we’re not really even that aware of it. And this stuff just comes out. It starts creating expectations. We hold ourselves to, it starts creating standards we compare ourselves to and can be a lot of times the reason why we feel like we’re doing a great job or we’re, failing.

And so. This question alone can actually give you quite a bit of mileage and help you sort of discover your vision of what you thought you would look like in motherhood and what it would be like for you. And I think that’s a good place to start. I’ll give you one more. I’ll give

JoAnn Crohn: I’m

Brie Tucker: I just

Morgan Cutlip: If you’re trying to figure out. I know. I can’t. I can’t stop. I can’t stop. Okay. So if you’re trying to specifically figure out what you need, I think this is an area of a lot of struggle for women specifically because. We’re sort of like, it’s indoctrinated kind of in us that we have to sacrifice our needs for everyone else.

And I don’t think that’s all bad. Like, a lot of people kind of hammer on that being a really, really bad thing. I don’t think it’s bad when we keep this in check. I think it’s kind of a wonderful part of who we are as women. I,

JoAnn Crohn: It’s like a caregiver role that we actually wish that other people in our lives would take on some of that load so that we didn’t

Morgan Cutlip: yeah. Yeah, or do it toward us. I mean, I think that’s part of it is like, yeah, like, we pour into everybody, but it’s like, hello, like, who’s showing up for us? And that can be really painful, but because of it, what happens, and I think how women get lost in motherhood a lot of times is that motherhood in the beginning forces you to put your needs on the back burner because you, you kind of yeah. Gotta be there and keep a human alive. And so it’s necessary.

But we get locked in where our needs remain on the back burner for a really long period of time. And then we emerge to like a phase in motherhood where it’s like, all right, I got a little bit more time. I got a little bit more space. And then you’re like, I don’t even know what I like anymore. I don’t even know what I need.

It’s, I’ve smushed them down for so long. I cannot even get in touch with them. So that’s why it’s. It’s important to kind of stay in the know with yourself so that doesn’t happen. But a very quick way to get to know what you need is to just think about what you complain about the most. That’s like the easiest kind of like shortcut.

What are you, are you like regularly complaining about your partner and that they never spend any time with you? Right? It’s like, is that something you’re regularly complaining about? Now unpack it. What is the need behind the complaint? If you think about, oh, I’m always running short on time, time, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

Maybe what is the need behind that complaint? Is it that you need a little bit more breathing room? Is it that you need a bit more downtime? Is that you need to cut things out? Start to think through the needs behind the complaints.

JoAnn Crohn: That’s a really great advice. Cause like, I can think of that in my own life right now. And currently I’m complaining about my son joined mountain biking team, like on a whim, but the practice is like 30 minutes away from our house. It’s only an hour and a half and then it’s 30 minutes back. And I’m like.

This is like all of my time right here. This is like a huge time commitment. And when I, when I started thinking about that, it’s like, what though, as a mom, can I do when I definitely like, this is a kid who I have had a hard time getting him interested in a sport. Like, and finally he shows something and I’m like, okay, we got to make this happen.

Yeah. But it’s also this feeling of resentment because it’s like my husband can’t because he doesn’t get out of work till six and that’s when practice starts. So he can’t help with it. And we can ask in laws, but my husband’s reluctant to ask his parents for some reason to, for any help whatsoever.

And so it becomes this like tricky sort of thing. When you know what you need, I need a personal Uber driver to take my son places. 

Morgan Cutlip: how old’s your son? 

JoAnn Crohn: He’s 11.

Morgan Cutlip: Hmm now I just want to go into strictly

Brie Tucker: know. right know! that’s,

Morgan Cutlip: I’m like, is that not another, I feel like very maternal characteristic of like, when we hear somebody struggling, we want to be able to help solve.

Brie Tucker: Yeah. want to save them? Mm

Morgan Cutlip: hmm. Yep.

JoAnn Crohn: But is that something that we would want done to us? That’s what I’m wondering. Like, this maternal need to problem solve

Brie Tucker: I want someone to help me. Yeah, I

JoAnn Crohn: Do we appreciate this? Yeah, when we ask for it, I think.

Brie Tucker: I don’t know. I, my But no? different. that’s a personal preference Yeah I think it’s personal Some of us want some of us want to vent some of us want somebody to jump in and save us some of us, yeah, some of us won’t need the problem. And sometimes it just is different based on what’s going on in your life. Like there are some times where I’m like, help me brainstorm what’s going on here.

Morgan Cutlip: Help me problem solve. Sometimes I’m like, just let me, just let me go and don’t try to fix anything. So I think it depends. But with that situation that feels like, I mean, if you zoom out a little bit, I mean, you’re, you’re, what you said is an important barometer, which is like the resentment piece. And I think that that’s, that’s just kind of like.

The tricky part of motherhood is so often that we, we do all of the self sacrificing because we care so deeply about our relationships and especially our children that we’re like, I will give everything to them. But if we get to the point where we’re then resentful, like, I’ve been there. I’ve noticed, like, I’m like, you guys are getting older.

You need to step it up. Like, we’re making some changes. Cause I’m starting to get, I get mad at my, and it’s like the people that we love most, we pour so much into that we become so depleted that then we’re resentful toward the people we love most, ultimately harming the relationship. And so we have to kind of check, that’s why I think it’s important to check in with ourselves, to manage our needs in all these different areas of our relationship.

But if you’re getting resentful, then it’s time to make a shift in some direction, whether that’s like, Sorry, honey, your parents aren’t going to help out at least like one practice a week or something. Like coming up with some, some alternatives or if it’s, it’s picking a new interest or if it’s there’s something enjoyable for you to do while you’re on your drive or, you know, there’s all sorts of ways to kind of like brainstorm it.

But the resentment piece is the, is the important one to pay

JoAnn Crohn: So I kind of problem solved through all this as soon as I realized that resentment was affecting me. And I, I was mad about it. And what we did is that now my son, his school’s only a mile away, but he really doesn’t like biking to school. Interesting, huh, Mountain? Anyways. He. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. He doesn’t like it because it’s hot, you know, it is hot right now in Arizona. So, he is going to now bike to school, even though it’s hot. So he saves me from car line in the morning and in the afternoon I am going to just find a Starbucks nearby for those mountain biking practices.

And my husband, I put him in charge of getting all the gear and everything. So he was out in the 105 garage yesterday, changing a tire on the bike. And I’m like, okay, we’re good now. We’re good

Morgan Cutlip: Yeah. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: But it’s that resentment that really informed it for me to be like, okay, there’s something that needs to happen here because I can’t do this. Take this on all

Morgan Cutlip: Exactly, and it, like, I get kind of bugged by the messaging because sometimes the messaging is like very extreme around this topic, which can be like no, you gotta take care of yourself before everybody else. Like that’s kind of a messaging we get, like oxygen mask on first. And I, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s.

Sometimes, but like sometimes no, like you’re not going to be like, sorry, I’m resentful, no more mountain biking for you. It’s just like, that’s not actually, that doesn’t really feel good either, really, in terms of how we probably want to feel in our life and in our relationships and specifically in motherhood.

And so I think your example is such a perfect demonstration of like, I factored me in, but also like cared for my kid in a way I feel good about. And so I think that’s truly at the heart of my book, which is like, how do we factored in, but still feel good about, you know, ourselves in motherhood.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. It’s a hard balance to like, take care of. Like, I mean, it’s always shifting as you say, like life does not, you don’t fix one problem and everything’s smooth sailing from now on. Like there are

constantly things that come up and change along the way. but like a lot of times when you say, like we might know our needs sometimes in the moment. But as women, I feel like we’ve been taught to stuff down our needs to make sure that everyone else is happy. And something impactful that you say, like, cause I’m like, I’m like taking it all in Morgan, I was like reading your book, so like go get Morgan’s book because there is such good stuff in there.

When I can’t put a non fiction book down, you know it’s good. Cause I have to take those at stages. But you deny people the way to love you completely if they don’t know what you need. And that hit me hard. I was like, oh, you’re so right on that.

Morgan Cutlip: I feel like and I say this to women a lot in their relationships with their partners too. I think, I think men do it. I actually think men do this too. too. We just don’t talk about that as much, but we tend to stuff down our needs because we’re told that we need to be easy and don’t be dramatic and don’t be too much and don’t, you know, all these messages that we receive.

Yeah. Don’t be, Oh gosh, high maintenance is like the worst, right? Criticize. Yeah. Dramatic. She’s, Oh, she just likes so much. So, we really work hard to make our needs pretty small or to position them well and to tiptoe around them or all of these different things, but when we are building resentment, when we’re sort of like this comes out in all sorts of ways.

Either you, you build it up and then you blow up at people in your life or it just comes out as like snarkiness or you’re tense or you’re irritable most of the time, which feels horrible to exist that way. But when you keep them to yourselves, you are determining the outcome. Of what happens in your relationship.

If that person does not know how to love you well, because you never tell them, then they will never be able to really love you well. And I think we get caught up on well, people, well, my partner specifically, they should just know how to take care of me.

JoAnn Crohn: That’s something you hear a lot.

Brie Tucker: It’s not fair either way. I mean, honestly, I think that when that comes up, that’s when I’m like. would I feel like I was being given the shaft if somebody was saying that or thinking that about me? Well, she should just know. I would be like, no, that’s not fair. I’m not a, I’m not like a mind reader. So then

Morgan Cutlip: Yeah, so we have, we have to tell them. I mean, now, if you tell them and they don’t ever change anything, that’s a, we’re now in a different category. We’re in a different category of, I actually talk about this in my second book, so you have to, you have to like, we’ll have to have a conversation then, but I talk about kind of like a continuum of confrontation because it changes.

As you express yourself. But yeah, you’ve got to give people the opportunity to show up for you in the ways that you need. If you don’t give them the opportunity and then you’re mad at them that they didn’t do it, that’s not actually fair.

JoAnn Crohn: No, it’s not. It’s something that I’m actually talking about with my daughter now because she has a problem talking with her dad about like when it makes her mad if he does something. And usually it’s typical, like it’s mansplaining what makes her mad. She’s 15. And so this last weekend she was like, Oh, you know, dad made me mad.

And I’m like, you know what? Do you want my advice on this one? And she’s like, if you want to give it, fine. And I’m like, you should just text him like you texted me.

And she finally took my advice. This has been like three years in the making. And she texted him and what he responded back is of course how I knew he would respond where he’s like, I apologize for that.

I didn’t realize what I was doing and I’m going to try in the future. to do it better and I could see how you feel that way. but talking to him as well, he’s like, she finally told me when something was bothering her. And I’m like, yes, she did. She

Morgan Cutlip: Okay. But this is such a big deal on so many levels. So number one, like you’re just teaching her base, assertiveness skills and helping her confront through her behavior, like different belief systems about like, Oh, they’re going to be upset with me. We went through, I go through this still with, with our daughter.

I talk, I tell a story in the book about her confronting my sister and dealing with some of that sort of belief system stuff. But the other piece is that it’s. shaping how she’s going to expect to be treated someday in a future relationship. And so if she has a father who responds with, owning it and taking responsibility for what he did, that’s what she’s going to expect.

And so if she does not get that, she, it’s, it’s raising her standards for future relationships. And I think that is like, It’s such a gift. You’re giving her such a gift by teaching her how to do that.

JoAnn Crohn: I love that I had, I had a situation where I kind of knew where I would go, like knowing my husband and knowing her, my daughter, but say like listeners right now are in a situation where they know the father is not doing that to their kids. I mean, basically it’d be like any adult male in their lives. Would I guess the thing is I’m looking at Brie, if you notice Brie was making really like horrible faces during it. So I’m going to let Brie actually, if you want to come in here,

Brie Tucker: I just yeah, in our case, my daughter has been through years of therapy and is still trying to get over that hump of like talking to her dad. And so I just, I can tell you, I can see it from the other side of not being validated, of constantly being told it’s not my fault. I didn’t do anything wrong. You took it the wrong way. You’re too sensitive. Like, it’s, it’s rough.

Morgan Cutlip: I think that , all of these situations become opportunities, because The thing that they don’t tell you about motherhood that’s so much more challenging in parenthood in general that is like how much you’re like preparing this person to exist in a very complicated world and I know that we should know that going into it but it is like way more nuanced than anybody tells you and it’s like One thing that I take very seriously with both our kids, and especially Effie because she’s a bit older, and then Roy and I are doing more of this, is how to use discernment and character analysis in relationships.

Like, I’m constantly helping them analyze other people, and I tell them, like, you don’t want to be judgmental, but you want to use good judgment, right? Because you’re picking friends, you’re picking, eventually you’ll pick partners. Like you, you have to know how to use discernment.

So when she has these interactions with her dad, if you analyze those, you do like post game analysis of stuff like that, like you are equipping her for future relationships, you do post game analysis of her and your current husband. You’re like, what’s up with that affect? Like, do you get that? Like my kids will be like, you know, so and so, they got a fight. Flat affect. I can’t tell what’s going on. And I’m like, yes.

So like, we talk, we talk about it because, because it’s like, if they have an affect that does not respond much, does that mean there’s something wrong with you? Or does that mean that’s just kind of how they are? And so helping to just connect dots for our kids is so powerful in terms of who they’ll relate to and how they’ll relate with people as they get older.

JoAnn Crohn: It is so powerful. And it’s funny. Like you’ve mentioned affect because it like my kids misinterpret my affect all the time, but they call me on it immediately versus. Like my husband, they will internalize it. And so doing, I like this postgame analysis and talking about affect. I am so good to take that.

And Morgan, I could, I could talk with you so much longer. But I highly encourage everybody to go get Morgan’s book. It is love your kids without losing yourself. Like it is so. So, so good and we’ll give you insights into how you react as a parent and also how you react with your kids. And Morgan, what is coming up for you that you’re excited about?

Morgan Cutlip: my second book is going to be coming out. It’s a little bit of a ways off, but it’s on the mental load, and I am so excited about this one. And also I’m going to first book is like my first book feels like my heart’s in the world like that. I pour stories into it about my, relationship with my kids, my relationship with myself.

Like that one is so important. I want to tell people also, you can listen to it. It’s on audible. It’s on Spotify premium. I think that’s easier for a lot of moms. I read it. So if you enjoy my voice, Then listen. If you don’t, then you can read it.

Brie Tucker: Gorgeous. I love it.

JoAnn Crohn: Yes.

Morgan Cutlip: but my second book comes out in April. It’s called A Better Share: How couples can tackle the mental load for more fun, less resentment, and great sex. Because sex, sex is a big part of what gets a lot of times sort of thrown out of the relationship when the mental load is not feeling fair. So I’m excited about that

Brie Tucker: you know you’re coming back for that

JoAnn Crohn: is exciting.

Morgan Cutlip: Yeah, well, let’s

JoAnn Crohn: Okay. Yes. Let’s do it.

Morgan Cutlip: There’s a lot to say about that topic.

JoAnn Crohn: There is a lot to say. Well, thank you so much, Morgan, for joining us and we’ll talk to you soon.

Morgan Cutlip: for having me. Appreciate it.

Brie Tucker: So for anybody that watches when we restream this live, which we we do it pretty consistently every Tuesday and Thursday when our episodes go live at 12

JoAnn Crohn: Around noon.

Brie Tucker: Yeah. 12 Pacific, three o’clock Eastern. We, we live stream on all of our social medias. You can see the deer in headlights of my face when JoAnn shares this lovely, heartwarming story about her daughter and her husband having this great interaction, her sharing something that upset her and her husband taking it in and communicating back in a healthy relationship. And then she was like, so what, what happens when you don’t have that? And I’m all like, Oh crap. She’s talking about me. I was like, Oh, this is coming up with our stuff. But yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: see you go, well, actually, like, I was noticing your facial expressions when I was telling

Brie Tucker: Well, right. Cause I was

JoAnn Crohn: And that’s why I brought it up. Yeah, but you were like, you were like, mmm, you had the scrunched up face,

Brie Tucker: I

JoAnn Crohn: when I’m telling the

Brie Tucker: Well, yeah, Morgan’s reaction, too, was like, well, this is a great healthy thing, and I’m all like, it would be healthy, wouldn’t it?

JoAnn Crohn: wouldn’t it? Yes. Well, if you don’t know the whole story behind it, we did record a podcast episode about that story about Brie’s daughter

Brie Tucker: will attempt to find it while we’re

JoAnn Crohn: and she’ll put it in the show notes. I, I, as you probably could tell from the interview, though, I was a huge fan of Morgan’s book. I started reading it the night before this interview and I got most of the way through, honestly, and it’s a hefty book.

I just couldn’t put it down. But one of the things I do when I’m reading nonfiction because I realized, especially as a podcast host. Like I would read these great books and I’d be like, Oh my gosh, it’s so great. And then. I couldn’t remember a thing to talk about from it. Like I just remembered it was great and it was wonderful because I’m on to the next thing and I’m reading about the next thing and that’s in it.

So I have to take notes when I read books else I just don’t remember them. And what I do is usually I have either a paper copy of the book or I have a Kindle and then I have my phone notes app open at the same time. And when I find something that I want to take a note on, I push the little like microphone thing.

in the notes app and I’m reading from the book and talking right directly into my notes app, which then does the text to speech right there on the screen. And so I have these very hefty notes on Morgan’s book that really didn’t take me too long because I just spoke them all as I was reading it. So that’s how I take the notes. That’s how I, how I remember things from the books. Cause I also like in all of our teaching, like our balance program, like I’m constantly doing new trainings

Brie Tucker: Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: new sessions and bringing new stuff into Joe with Joe every morning. So I need material. So I have to constantly be reading and learning and upping my game and that’s how I keep it all straight.

Brie Tucker: That’s good to know because I’ve, the couple of times I’ve had to cover for you, I’m like, I don’t know how JoAnn does it. So, y’all see the weather today. What? Hey, like,

JoAnn Crohn: I constantly read. I am constantly reading. So that’s, that’s how I do it. Secret!

Brie Tucker: Anybody see the latest cat and dog video? Anybody? Anybody at all? I digress.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, that’s how it is. But we hope that you enjoyed this episode. Please share it with a friend, someone that you know needs this episode in their life. Especially, like, keep your ears out for those complaints. that you hear from friends and those complaints you’re making of yourself, because as Morgan said in this episode, whatever you complain about is what you need.

So use them to inform what you need and help others also figure out what they need or figure out what others need by what they’re complaining about. I thought that was such a great tip. If you enjoyed this episode, also if you could rate it on iTunes, because you know, that helps us with the algorithm that helps us get to more moms. And it also helps people know Dr. Morgan’s work as well. So until next time, remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker: Thanks for stopping by.