Podcast Episode 298: You Go Girl! How We Can Support One Another Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

Jo Piazza: it is loosely based on an actual murder in my family. there’s just long been this story that my family’s talked about. And because we’re Italian American, my family is filled with storytellers and liars. And, They have always talked about how my great great grandmother, Lorenza Marsala, was murdered in Sicily before she could join the rest of her family in America.

JoAnn Crohn: Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host, JoAnn Crohn, joined here by the lovely Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker: Why, hello, hello, everybody. How are you?

JoAnn Crohn: We have a wonderful guest for you today. I’ve looked forward to interviewing her for a long time and Brie, wouldn’t you say she was fun? She was lovely.

Brie Tucker: absolute delight. She was

JoAnn Crohn: Yes.

Brie Tucker: loved it. I loved the candor. I loved the energy, the tone. The only thing I will say is that, it had a little more language than we typically have. So that is it. But I love

JoAnn Crohn: which I have to say, I have to be totally upfront about this guys.

Brie Tucker: talk.

JoAnn Crohn: Brie and I, yeah, this is how Brie and I

Brie Tucker: ourselves. We edit ourselves for the podcast. Because we

JoAnn Crohn: know that you’re probably listening with kids and we, we edit a little. So just for warning, do this one on your headphones. If you’re not comfortable with your kids, hearing some language and Frank talk.

Brie Tucker: Yeah, yeah, it was completely appropriately used. So,

JoAnn Crohn: Yes, it was all lovely and wonderful. She’s our

Brie Tucker: But I love her energy. Like, you, you just, you finish listening to this episode and you’re going to walk out like, Yeah! Let’s do it!

JoAnn Crohn: so if you have heard of the book, The Sicilian Inheritance we have the author today on and if you have not heard of the book The Sicilian Inheritance, go get it. It is like a great beatry novel that I can’t even talk about like the ending is just remarkable. You’re going to feel such like a little love bubble. Like I described, it’s such a love bubble and such hope and such wonderful stuff.

Brie Tucker: Yeah, she’s got two books you need to get. So, not only the Cecilia Inheritance, what other book do they need to get? Because we’re going to make a

JoAnn Crohn: Oh, Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win. So let me introduce her and then we’ll get in. We’re just so excited for you to hear this. Jo Piazza is a national and international bestselling author of The Sicilian Inheritance. We are not like them. You’re always mine. Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win. To win the knockoff and how to be married.

Her work has been published in 10 languages and 12 countries. And four of her books have been optioned for film and television, which she actually tells us some of the backstory in this interview about one of those. Jo’s podcasts have garnered more than 25 million downloads and regularly top podcast charts and editor columnist and travel writer.

Her work has appeared in the wall street journal, the New York times, New York magazine, Marie Claire glamour, and many other publications. She lives in Philly with her husband. Nick Astor and her three feral children.

Brie Tucker: I love that.

JoAnn Crohn: And we hope you enjoy our conversation with Jo. 

Jo, I’m so excited to have you here. we first met a long time, like 20 months ago now that you said your baby was born in Mom 2.0. And I think you’re hilarious.

Jo Piazza: Oh

JoAnn Crohn: you’re incredibly hilarious.

And I love looking at all your I G stuff and everything you say about trad wives. And not only are you hilarious, but you’re an extremely gifted writer. So there you go. There’s all my fangirl stuff for you right now. So welcome to the podcast.

Brie Tucker: on a beautiful platter, here you go.

Jo Piazza: On a beautiful, that was on a really nice platter. And you know what? I love compliments. So that was great.

JoAnn Crohn: It’s like feed it to me, feed it to me.

Jo Piazza: Totally. I mean, I’m actually so sick of faux humility these days. Like now when people say nice things to me and I’m like, you’re right. I am funny.

JoAnn Crohn: love that. That is something that I have had to learn myself over the years, because actually in high school, one of my friends complimented me and it was like, no, no. And she looked me straight in the eyes and she’s like, JoAnn, just say thank you. And I’m like,

Jo Piazza: say thank you. Yes.

JoAnn Crohn: you. Just say thank you. And from there, I’ve always just said thank you, no matter how uncomfortable it’s made me feel. Because I think as women, we’re like taught to

Brie Tucker: To be humble.

JoAnn Crohn: and be humble.

Jo Piazza: Totally. And men don’t feel this way. Like I looked at my husband the other day and I was like, Oh my God, you are looking like, so fit. And he’s like, I know. And I’m just like, Yeah, exactly. And the only reason he’s looking fit is that he caught hand, foot and mouth

Brie Tucker: my god, I know how that is! And he

Jo Piazza: Uh Huh.

Brie Tucker: in, like, weeks.

Jo Piazza: He didn’t eat, he didn’t eat for a week because he got the mouth sores and so he didn’t eat for a week and because he’s a man, he immediately lost like 17 pounds. Whereas, you know, I could work out every day and eat. Eat air and

Brie Tucker: Right?

JoAnn Crohn: It’s to like gain a few pounds. It’s how it is. It’s

Jo Piazza: how it is. It’s my, it’s my hormonal perimenopause body and I just have to accept it.

Brie Tucker: hate that. yeah, been going through the perimenopause as well. Like, first just thought it was crazy. And now I’m just like, life is so unfair. It’s so

Jo Piazza: so, it’s so unfair. But yeah, but no, my husband will take a compliment as will every man who’s ever existed. And we need to learn to take it. So thank you for those. Thank you. Yes.

JoAnn Crohn: You’re welcome. Let’s get into your book, the newest book, The Sicilian Inheritance. Because first of all, it made me want to go to Italy and to Sicily. Just like, I want to call it like the lusciousness of all the surroundings like you wrote about, but also The murder element in the whole thing and the conspiracy, and this was based on your own family history. So I’m super curious to know, what did you find out in your family that you then chose to write this book?

Jo Piazza: So much. So much. And I love, I love the way that you just described it and I’m happy that it made you want to go to Sicily because that’s one of my goals. I mean, I set out with Sicilian Inheritance to write this delicious adventure. I want people to be hungry. I want you to crave incredible Sicilian food. food and to want to book a trip to Sicily. The New York Times, yeah, thank

Brie Tucker: right now you’ve achieved it. I’m like, oh,

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, I’ve achieved it.

Jo Piazza: the New York Times reviewer which I mean, it was an honor to have it reviewed in the times, but you know, they said two things that were amazing. One, they compared me to John Updike, which is so fucking hilarious. I mean, I like now I’m like, I will

JoAnn Crohn: read John Updike, honestly, so

Jo Piazza: And I will say that forever. Like I’ll be fighting with my husband and I’ll be like, do you remember the time that the New York times compared me to John Updike?

And he’s like, shut up. And I’m like, I’m going to tattoo that on my ass. But more importantly, they said it made them want to book a trip to Sicily. And I’m like, excellent goal achieved. Like that is all that I want you to do. do. But it is loosely based on an actual murder in my family. there’s just long been this story that my family’s talked about.

And because we’re Italian American, my family is filled with storytellers and liars. And They have always talked about how my great great grandmother, Lorenza Marsala, was murdered in Sicily before she could join the rest of her family in America. And a lot of my relatives didn’t even know her name.

They were just like, your great grandmother, your great great grandmother. I mean, they couldn’t even get the greats right. But like, they held on to this family lore, this family story. There were a lot of, theories out there that she was murdered by the mafia, that she was murdered because she was a witch.

But I mean, I just think that those were more self serving than anything else. And, I became fascinated by this after I had my daughter because I was really just interested in Why don’t we know more stories about the women in our family? We talk about the men, we talk about the men who came over and started a new life here in America, but we didn’t talk about the woman who was left behind.

And that’s what really inspired The Sicilian Inheritance. And so as much as I packaged it as a delicious, adventurous beach read, which it is, it is also a story about women’s ambition and agency and motherhood and what are the stories that we tell about women and what are the stories that we pass down.

Brie Tucker: interesting.

JoAnn Crohn: I, love it so much. And like, I, I hesitate talking more about it because like the real impact is in the ending and I don’t want to ruin the ending for everybody. So I’m going to like phrase my questions very carefully in this, because I love how you describe, we don’t talk about the women and their ambition because so often I feel when talking about like that’s our grandmother’s generation, our great grandmothers, it’s like, Oh, they were so selfless for their family, they put their family first. when. It seems so different than how our lives are currently. Like I have a disconnect on how our grandmothers could so and so put their families first. And we are living in this world where I just feel this rage if I don’t get the time for myself and I don’t get my needs met. And so. Your book and describing the, and I’ve totally, I’m horrible with names and books and remembering it. What is the grandmother’s name in the book? Serafina. Serafina.

Brie Tucker: I love that. I can see your hair like blowing in the wind.

JoAnn Crohn: the way you describe Serafina in the book and how she was like studying health and like the village doctor, basically that was a woman. That I could relate to that. I have never heard a story like that of the past before. Was that story based on like your kind of conjectures on what it may have been like, or is that did you dig up stuff about your grandmother?

Jo Piazza: it was fully based on conjecture. when I decided to write this as a novel, I decided it would be fully fiction. I did not investigate what actually happened to Lorenza until the book was written. I did do academic research into the time period. I read a lot of research papers, worked with a lot of professors who had studied women during this great migration.

from Sicily. And the one thing that I learned was that when the men did leave Sicily to come to America entire towns were left to women, and that women did take the men’s jobs, and that many of them learned to read and to write for the very first time. And that was a very powerful thing. It was this strange kind of feminist moment in Sicilian history that only a few academics had, written about. I had certainly never heard this and we’re not going to give away the ending of the book, but

JoAnn Crohn: Which is so good. Everyone needs to read it because you’re just like, your heart will be full,

Jo Piazza: It is, it’s a banger. It’s a real banger of an ending. And but I knew, that’s, I, that’s the only thing I knew. And this gets into the writing process in the weeds just a little bit, but I don’t outline. I fly by the seat of my pants when I write. And so, I sit down every day. I usually, when I’m not on a deadline like I’m on right now, I write a thousand words a day. And right now I’m writing 1500. But I do, if I buy the seat of my pants, I think there’s, there’s a lot of magic that happens in that. I think characters and ideas just kind of come to you, but I knew the ending. I just didn’t know how we were going to get there.

Brie Tucker: hmm.

Jo Piazza: And I really, really like what you said about historical fiction. I, for a long time, have not been a historical fiction reader because I think it often paints a false version of women in the past.

And with Sicilian Inheritance, we’re getting a lot of people saying, I don’t like historical fiction, but I love this. Because we often see women in a past timeline who we turn into saints. We turn them into saints. We turn them into martyrs. We make them un fun, we make them un sexy, and I wanted Serafina, who, was a character from the turn of the century to be relatable because women had a sense of humor.

They had desires. They had passions. Not everyone is speaking in like very proper old world speak. I mean, they make bawdy jokes and talk about poop and You know, and want to have sex and like, do think that even female writers, historical fiction writers, do women such a disservice by kind of de sexing us in a past timeline because we assume that what was humanity really so different back then.

Brie Tucker: yeah,

JoAnn Crohn: that that’s my disconnect. I have because it does seem like in most historical fiction that humanity was a lot different and I, I have to agree with you. I don’t think it was. I don’t think it could have been that different. We couldn’t have evolved like that much as women during that time to have totally different needs now.

And something else that you delve a lot into, especially on your Instagram account. So switching gears a little bit from The Sicilian Inheritance, which everyone needs to go get if you’re listening right now, get it on like audible or get it at like hard cover. Mine is signed by Jo, which I’m very excited about. Okay. But I want to get into these tradwives that you talk about your Instagram and let’s get into it right after this. 

So tradwives is actually something that you brought to my, like, forefront. I had no idea they were a thing until you mentioned it and you put this account on your Instagram. Can you give everybody a kind of rundown on what a tradwife is?

Jo Piazza: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ve been covering internet culture for better or worse for four years, which is, is shocking to me because four years ago, I wanted to create a podcast called Under the Influence that was a deep dive into influencers. At the time, I had a colicky baby. I can’t believe that colicky baby is about to be five years old.

But she didn’t sleep. And so she would only sleep if I was rocking her all night long. My only appendage that was free was my thumb. And so I was scrolling Instagram and constantly being served these perfect seeming mom influencers who were all trying to sell me something whose life. Looked insanely perfect and I hated them and loved them and they were aspirational.

And I also wanted to drop kick my phone every time I looked at them. And so I did what I always do when I’m confused about something, I reported the hell out of it. And I thought that I was just going to be puncturing the veil and exposing these women. And instead I, you know, Really discovered the 16 billion creator industry where a lot of things are smoke and mirrors, where a lot of people are selling you fantasies, but where a lot of women are also creating media brands and are entrepreneurs because the corporate career world is toxic.

for women and for mothers. And so this is the other path. And, I had a lot of feelings about it. I thought this was going to be eight episodes. We are now on episode 150 of Under the Influence. we are now two episodes a week and we dive into everything about being a woman in the world, but particularly how social media impacts our lives because social is media now, for better or worse.

And You know, mainstream news pretends that that’s not the case and they’re wrong and they’re dying. So I’ve really been following this recent trend of the hashtag trad wife and it’s been picking up steam in the past. I mean, it’s been around for about two years. It’s really picked up steam. This year, I don’t think that we can divorce the hashtag tradwife situation from conservative forces also taking over politics in our country.

They’re very, very tied together. In fact, we know that a lot of the tradwife themes are boosted on Instagram by various conservative lobbying groups who want to promote This idea of a quote unquote traditional marriage. And now I do like to say, when I talk about this, I am not talking about what we often refer to as stay at home moms.

JoAnn Crohn: hmm.

Jo Piazza: That’s

Brie Tucker: is a distinct difference there.

Jo Piazza: huge difference. Number one, I hate the word stay at home mom. I don’t know who created it. I say this enough that I should find out who created it, but it was clearly a man because who the fuck is staying? No one is staying. Okay.

JoAnn Crohn: was like, I’m willing to put money on that.

Brie Tucker: Yeah. It makes it sound like it’s a vacation.

Jo Piazza: It makes it sound like it’s a vacation, and we know that it is not.

And so when I’m talking about tradwives, this has nothing to do with the mothers who are working inside the home, who are the CEOs of their household, who are doing labor at home. This is a very particular thing where a woman is kind of cosplaying and a false nostalgia for a different time. We see a lot of women dressing up in 1950s sitcom outfits, Donna Reed, June Cleaver, Betty Draper on steroids, for a vision of America that never truly existed outside of the television, or more of a back to the land, little house on the prairie you know, homesteading. Caring for your nine to 12 children.

Brie Tucker: God.

Jo Piazza: you know, but it’s also unsustainable what I see them doing. Like, they do cosplay

it’s cosplay it’s, it’s, yes, they’re, I mean, they’re, creating a fantasy for a brand in order to make money off of your eyeballs, watching them. I don’t believe that anyone truly believes all of this. And the issue with the tradwives is not. even the costumes or the cosplaying of poverty whilst living a little house on the prairie fantasy.

It’s the fact that they are touting submission to their husbands. They’re giving up their agency. They’re, touting what they call traditional gender roles, and what they’re referring to as traditional is the man is the boss of the family. The man is the head of the household. The man is, you know, is the ultimate and all power flows through him.

It’s a very conservative Christian patriarchal message is what it is. And I do think a lot of these brands, and I don’t even say a lot of these women because we’re talking about a brand when we talk about this on

JoAnn Crohn: They’re making money off their accounts.

Jo Piazza: they’re making money by selling you this kind of fantasy a lot of it is very pretty in a very simply superficially aspirational way, where I think it is dangerous, is that we know That corporate culture has been toxic for women and mothers.

We know that the girl boss leaning in was incredibly toxic and didn’t work for a lot of people because corporate culture is not created for women. It’s created for Don Draper to go back to Mad Men again and again, which I can, over and

JoAnn Crohn: Which I kind of wish that like, I was a Don Draper, like, I mean, they have, he had an alcohol cart right in his office. He got to nap on the couch like during the afternoon, there was all of these great things that even in Mad Men, the women portrayed in Mad Men did not have that luxury ever,

Jo Piazza: no, never, never. Peggy never even got that. I mean, even once she became, like, once she became an actual ad executive, I don’t think she had her own whiskey cart. no, exactly, exactly. I mean,

JoAnn Crohn: did you watch mad men?

Brie Tucker: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jo Piazza: yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the greatest shows ever created, guys. Okay. totally holds up. Totally holds up.

JoAnn Crohn: The thing that gets me about the whole trad wife thing is that I, I have a teenage daughter and she was saying that one of her friends, all one of her friends wants to do is grow up and bake for her family. And my daughter’s like, are you kidding me? Like, what are you thinking? And she’s like, no, it just looks nice to knit and bake all day

Brie Tucker: It does look nice. It does,

JoAnn Crohn: happens.

Jo Piazza: does,

Brie Tucker: Right? It looks nice.

Jo Piazza: nice.

And this is not to discount baking, okay?

JoAnn Crohn: No, I love baking. I

Jo Piazza: I I do not. I um, I am, I

Brie Tucker: JoAnn has a talent.

Jo Piazza: yeah, I, I should not be in the kitchen, full stop, but this is not to discount any domestic labor. Here’s the problem. And this is why I think this is an issue. Young girls, young women are watching this, okay? And they’re like, oh, that looks easy. All of these accounts flatten the labor of motherhood. They flatten all of the domestic labor. And so these girls think all I’ll do is bake all day and they don’t realize the work that goes into being a full time mother, being a full time wife. And they may also think, Oh, it looks nice for a man to support you. But what happens when that man leaves or that man invests in like a weird venture and loses all of your money. And you have no idea. Because you have no control of your finances.

Brie Tucker: even the fact that where you deal with the fact that the of the relationship changes and then the man sees you as a burden

Jo Piazza: Yes.

Brie Tucker: and then you are treated as a burden.

Jo Piazza: all of these things. Okay. Like we know that is reality. And so young women who are watching social media the same way we watched Beverly Hills, 90210. And I say this because at 44, I know you guys are slightly younger than I am. At 44, I believe everyone is

Brie Tucker: Oh no, dear. I probably slightly older, but that’s

Jo Piazza: Okay, I’m just, I’m just saying, it’s like, I’ve reached, I’ve reached

JoAnn Crohn: 42. I’m

Jo Piazza: Oh, we’re the same, we’re the same age. Yeah, no no, but I’ve reached the age where I believe everyone is my age. But I was

Brie Tucker: I know. Right.

Jo Piazza: like 20 somethings the other day, and they’re like, we’re not the same

Brie Tucker: Oh, I know. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: Okay, it’s really funny though because I’m seeing like these YouTubers with kids now and I’m like, you look really young. Are you old enough to have that child? And they are! They’re like in their 20s and

Brie Tucker: because again, in our heads, it was just the nineties, you know, like 20

Jo Piazza: Yesterday.

Brie Tucker: it was like

JoAnn Crohn: if we, and if we want to take a real squirrel, seeing the high schoolers wait for the bus, they are dressed exactly like we were in the

Brie Tucker: Oh, I know. Don’t even get me started.

JoAnn Crohn: I was walking my dog this morning and this guy was coming towards me with a smashing pumpkins t shirt on the same one that was promoted in the night.

No, it’s like they’re, they have nineties

Brie Tucker: Oh yeah, my daughter is like, I need to go to this vintage place because they have vintage concert t shirts and you’re like, God, the money I would’ve made had I

JoAnn Crohn: They’re called vintage. They’re called vintage.

Jo Piazza: They’re called vintage. Wow.

JoAnn Crohn: Well, so far we’ve talked about a lot, like with the past, with your grandmother and then how you write about Serafina and we talked about kind of what’s happening with the trad white movement and this conservative event coming up, I want to talk about present day. And in fact, how it ties to your novel In the past, the Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win. And so we’re going to talk about that right after this. 

Okay. I have not read Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win, but what I’ve seen of it, I’m like, that’s next on my to be read

Jo Piazza: It needs to be next on your to be read list. I am. I’m going to say girls. I decided two nights ago after having three IPAs, which is essentially having like 20 beers that we need to get Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win on the bestseller list right now, because

Brie Tucker: Let’s make a

Jo Piazza: I’m I’m making a movement to make that happen because we need I think it’s hashtag she likes to win is our hashtag. This book, I mean, I wrote this novel eight years ago about what it was like for a woman to run for political office, to have ambition. And it is more relevant than ever. And I want everyone to buy this freaking book right now.

Brie Tucker: Yes. Yes.

JoAnn Crohn: I’m going to, I’m going to get this book immediately.

Jo Piazza: book, order it for three friends. Tell everyone to buy Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win ASAP such that they’re actually probably going to run out of stock and they have to reprint it. And I think that that would be amazing.

JoAnn Crohn: I think that would be amazing. Yeah. Cause we’re recording this right after Kamala is now presumptively the nominee and this will air in September. So we’re hoping that it’s still going good, but

Jo Piazza: You tell us like, what are some of the things in your book that Charlotte Walsh comes across is like running as a female candidate. my God. I mean, it’s just amazing. It is amazing that it still holds up. Like I said, I wrote this book in the wake of, of 2016 and it was originally supposed to be a satire, a satire of what it takes for a woman to run for office. And when I proposed it and when it sold to the publisher, we thought Hilaria was going to win.

Brie Tucker: Yeah, well, so did a lot of us

Jo Piazza: in, so did a lot of us. Yeah. And in the midst of, you know, the writing, she didn’t win and it became, the world became a satire and it became less of a satire and more of a character driven novel about what does it take for a woman to win political office and how hard it is for a woman to win political office.

And so, yeah. In the book, Charlotte Walsh is a tech executive in Silicon Valley who returns to her hometown of Scranton, PA to run for Senate in Pennsylvania, a state that has still, even eight years later, not elected a woman to the Senate or to be governor ever. And, you know, it is a book about politics, but it is.

Also a book about a family, her husband moves out with her. He takes a back seat to her job and her ambitions. And that does not work out well for anyone involved. And, and we see, we see the behind the scenes of what a political campaign does to a marriage of how the media treats a woman differently.

Then they treat men. And, you know, I’ve had a front seat to that. I’ve covered every election since 2004. And I’m, I’m checking, I mean, I, I’m checking out of, full time political coverage now, mostly because I think I would want to shoot myself in the face, but.

Brie Tucker: much to swallow.

Jo Piazza: Yeah, I’ve been, I’ve been on the front lines of this for a very long time.

I’m guilty of covering women candidates differently than I’ve covered male candidates. you know, I was forced at one point to write an entire screed against Hillary Clinton wearing a goddamn scrunchie and I hate myself for it. I still think about that all the time. And so, Charlotte faces an uphill battle in this Senate race that the media is against her.

You know, it’s her, even her husband seems like he’s against her part of the time. And it’s really difficult. And I think I thought the book, I was hoping the book would be outdated, is what I was hoping. I was hoping that, you know, we would not continue to face this eight years later, and now we are seeing Kamala being attacked in the exact same way that I wrote in this book.

as partially satire, right? and it’s, I think it’s actually worse now. It’s astounding to me. The book really holds up, it had been in production for a TV series. Julia Roberts bought the rights to it right after it was published, actually before it was published. And we had a whole writer’s room.

We had eight episodes written. Amazon bought it. Julia Roberts bailed because she had a dream that told her not to do it. Hollywood 

JoAnn Crohn: on. Oh,

Jo Piazza: now we are, we’re, you know, we’ve, we’ve retold the scripts a little bit and it’s going back out to market again, but the scripts didn’t, they didn’t have to be retold very

JoAnn Crohn: They didn’t have to be. So like, I know like one of the things to make sure, like dealing in unconscious bias land to make sure that you don’t act on unconscious biases, it’s good to like, know exactly what to look out for. So like, what should we be looking out for in terms of how the media is portraying a woman so we could immediately see it and go like, that’s bullshit.

Jo Piazza: yeah, it’s you know, a lot of things in terms of how women are described, like, really be cognizant of how women’s voices are described. that’s a big one. You know, women are often described as empathetic. whiny, overly emotional, or brash and scary. when, I mean, literally they’re speaking the same exact way that a man does, but we somehow hear the tones of a woman’s voice in a different way than we hear a man’s. Women’s outfits are constantly, constantly critiqued. At every

Brie Tucker: gives a crap what a guy

Jo Piazza: turn,

JoAnn Crohn: The guy could wear the same suit every single

Jo Piazza: no. When I was, when I was watching the Biden Trump debate, all I could think was, who’s been doing Biden’s Botox? Cause it looks like shit. like, like whoever is doing his Botox.

Brie Tucker: obviously you’re not the same person that does Matt Gaetz.

Jo Piazza: No, has done, yeah, exactly, has done a very bad job and yet we don’t cover men like that, but we certainly, certainly judge women on their appearance. And now, I mean, the attacks that we’re already seeing from the Trump campaign, we know that they’re going to go after Kamala for not having children. This is something that we, we will never attack a man for one, not being married, for two, marrying three women and cheating on all of them,

Brie Tucker: Exactly!

Jo Piazza: Or three, for how many children they’ve had in or outside of wedlock.

We will not critique a man’s personal life in the way that we will critique a

Brie Tucker: Because that has nothing to do with his politics or his policy.

Jo Piazza: exactly, exactly. She is already being attacked for it, and that is really the big one. Like, we have to think, I mean, in terms of would you, with everything, would, would anyone do this to a man? Would you think this about a man? Would someone write this about a man? And the answer, the majority of the time, is going to be no.

JoAnn Crohn: No, never. I know. It’s like so

Brie Tucker: we, somebody had posted this in social media. I think it was our friend Shana, but like, can we take a moment and acknowledge that this is probably the only time that we’ll ever see the media say that a 50 year old woman is, is young.

Jo Piazza: Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn: 59. Yeah. 59 year old woman.

Jo Piazza: 59, right? Isn’t she 59? I know.

JoAnn Crohn: Mm hmm. Oh, she’s so young.

Compared to like the 80 year olds.

Jo Piazza: sp sprightly. And she is. She is. I mean, she,

Brie Tucker: Oh, but they normally like to say that the moment that, right, that a woman hits 50, she’s too old. She

Jo Piazza: she’s too old. She’s too old. She needs to bow out of the world. Actually, you should shut up and drop out of society,

Brie Tucker: We don’t have to see you anymore. You’re just,

Jo Piazza: we don’t want to see, we don’t want to look at your wrinkled ass face. And yeah, no, this is the first, this is the first time in history that someone has, has referred to a 59 year old woman as young and vibrant. Vibrant. I think the fact, it’s very interesting to me because when I was writing Charlotte Walsh I was focusing heavily on motherhood.

I was. I was leaning into that. I was pregnant with my first child while I was in the process of writing it. And really thinking about the fact that we, barely any politicians at all in the world who are currently bearing. Children. I mean, who are, actively become females, female politicians, because, you know, a male politician isn’t doing the work, but who are actively having babies.

I can count them on one hand. And in the book, Charlotte has young children and we see her struggling with motherhood on the campaign trail, which is something we do not often see. And we also see her mothering criticized. On the campaign trail, we see her criticized for allowing her husband to step in and help more with these children. And I think it’s going to be very interesting to watch how Kamala is attacked for being a woman without her own biological children.

Brie Tucker: saying right now, I will defend that to the damn death, because that is

Jo Piazza: it’s

Brie Tucker: ridiculous.

JoAnn Crohn: but you have to know it. You have to know it to see it. And yes

Brie Tucker: I you bringing that to, to light because I don’t think I had really thought about that. And now that you say that, I’m like, Oh my God, yes,

Jo Piazza: Yeah. Yeah. there’s, there’s so many takeaways from Charlotte. we’re going to get this on the bestseller list. Everyone buys Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win. I mean, still buy The Sicilian Inheritance. So still

Brie Tucker: #SheLikesToWin

Jo Piazza: She

JoAnn Crohn: already thinking like we should do a book club free for no guilt mom, like no guilt mom book club on the Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win. And Jo, you could come and you

Jo Piazza: I’ll come. 100%. for this. Let’s do it. Let’s make it happen. We’re women. We make everything happen. Yeah.

Brie Tucker: this is going to blow up. Oh

JoAnn Crohn: so what else, what are you excited about, Jo, that’s coming up for you?

Jo Piazza: Oh my gosh. I mean, now our new plan to get everyone to read Charlotte Welch Likes to Win, I’m crazily enough still on book tour for Sicilian Inheritance and I did not expect to be. The book came out In April, I have five events planned in September, another five in October, a whole reading, writing retreat in Vermont that I’m heading up in November.

And I think it’s because Sicilian has, just, it’s gotten a lot of people excited about reading again. The best thing that I’ve heard about it is that it got people out of a reading slump and we want to see vibrant, ambitious female characters who are helping each other. There’s no male savior in this book. There’s also no fairy or dragon sex which I think that adult women are kind of sick of at this point.

JoAnn Crohn: to the heart of thorn and roses, Brie. Yes.

Brie Tucker: All right. Then.

JoAnn Crohn: That’s huge right now. Yes.

Jo Piazza: Yeah, yeah I mean, God bless, but it’s not my jam, and I think a lot of people, a lot of people want to read a grown up book. but one that is also fun. This is not literary. It is commercial as all heck, and it is just an easy breezy fun read. So, I mean, really, my life is all Sicilian inheritance right now. And you know, continuing to be the mom to three feral, feral children.

JoAnn Crohn: And to add on for Sicilian Inheritance, there is sex in a cave, in a

Jo Piazza: Hundred percent. Sex in a beach cave. Sex in a beach

JoAnn Crohn: case.

Jo Piazza: there’s,

JoAnn Crohn: Brie. Got it.

Jo Piazza: there’s also, there’s also sex in the ruins of an old church in the middle of Palermo, which I don’t think gets talked about nearly enough. And it’s grown up. Sex is what it is. It’s grown up, efficient, easy in, easy out still, still hot, still hot, but no one has wings or a magic

JoAnn Crohn: No. No one has me.

Brie Tucker: I

JoAnn Crohn: Well, thank you so much, Jo, for joining us, and we will talk to you soon.

Jo Piazza: I love this. Thanks guys.

Brie Tucker: Okay, so you guys were talking quite a bit about, you know, how corporate America doesn’t necessarily lend towards being a mom and being able to support that role. And I wanted to say, like, I was quiet because I was thinking about my own experiences and I’ve worked in, A lot of different areas, all for the same goal of like early childhood.

But so I worked in nonprofits, I’ve worked for school districts and I worked for this one charter school system that floored me, how their district office was run so corporate. I had never been in a corporate environment like that before. I know that you have, but I hadn’t. And it was flooring me the way that things were being done.

And this was my experience that fits what you guys were saying to a tee. So I remember being in a board meeting and when I first started working there in like the first couple of months, cause I was in charge of a new program at the school was rolling out. So I’m in this board meeting and they said my name and I’m like, well, actually my last name is changed.

It’s now it changed from Hall to Tucker and one of the VPs. Yes, we had VPs by the way. In this school system, which was like, why would you have VPs? But neither here nor there, he looked at me and smiled and said, Oh, you got married. And I’m like, no, the opposite got divorced. And he’s like, Oh, I’m so sorry.

And I’m like, no, it’s actually better this way. so there was that first piece right there, like feeling pity because I was not married. But I also can understand people thinking that divorce is a bad thing. And in a lot of cases it is. But Then as it went on the years I was working there and being my best friend, you know, the struggles I had, but if anything came up where they were like, well, we need this done by next week, or we need you on site at this campus at like 6 00 AM.

And I’m like, I can’t, I have to get my kids to school. they go to school for the school system that has no bus transportation. So I can’t, or I can’t stay late for that meeting, or I can’t get that project done because you’re giving me 12 hours to do it. And it would constantly be, well, can’t you just have your husband pick up the kids?

Well, can’t you just have Somebody else make dinner or whatever. And hello, it is only me. And the fact that there was like absolutely no consideration, there was like three or four of us that were single parents and we all had the same problem, they would say that they were supportive, but then like. There was no consideration for somebody that had to be the caregiver of their kids. Like it just, it wasn’t there.

JoAnn Crohn: because they were, were they all men,

Brie Tucker: Yes, it was all, there was one woman VP, but she honestly kind of gave off the exact same vibes. And. And all

JoAnn Crohn: kind of like how women VPs have to be because they’re trying to survive

Brie Tucker: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You had to like, I, I had to leave there not only because like, it felt like it was going against my morals, but also because like, I was never going to get ahead because I couldn’t do the things that they wanted. That was only available to somebody that was in a dual parent household. That also wasn’t the default parents.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. No, I mean that that is how it is I remember being like years old working in corporate and I was working in entertainment industry corporate, which is not like Artistic or anything like that. It’s very money driven. All of the heads were men. They all had either wives at home who took care of like the kids.

Well, I mean, they had this like crazy schedule where they would have breakfast with the client at 8 AM and then they would have lunch with somebody and then they would go to dinner. So, I mean, these guys weren’t getting home until like 9 PM at night and they’re having all their meals outside of the house. And I was like, how would I ever? Do that with a family. Like I was thinking of it and like, I’m not saying all men are like this, but in that career, that is what was expected.

Brie Tucker: And these aren’t one off stories.

JoAnn Crohn: And these aren’t one off stories. It’s what’s expected. The women in these careers, they had to get full time nannies and they really did not see their kids very much and they hated it and they felt so much guilt about it, but they thought that that was the only way that they could provide for their family in the industry. And many of the women who were in top executive positions were childless. Like they, they knew

Brie Tucker: kids that were much older, right?

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah.

Brie Tucker: That were like, done and out of the house.

JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, no, it’s completely ridiculous. It’s ridiculous what the expectations are in the corporate environment. And like, I think things definitely need to change their companies who really succeed, know how to embrace this like dual expectation thing.

There are so many companies right now started by like millennials or like even no guilt mom. Like we’re never going to go in the office. We’re always going to be work from home because that gives us the most flexibility to deal with whatever arises like today. My son’s sick from school and I can still continue with a work day because it’s from my home office and I’m here at home. So

Brie Tucker: understanding of

JoAnn Crohn: yes. And we’re very understanding of it all. Like one of our team members sick with COVID and are we making her work? No. We’re like, you stay, you rest, you get as much as you can. We got it. Because something else that bothered me, like in teaching, if I was sick as a dog, I would still have to make sub plans.

Brie Tucker: And you probably got made to feel guilty if you were out for more than one or two days. Oh my God. And now, with the teaching shortage, it’s even worse. Like, are you really that sick? Are you really? I mean,

JoAnn Crohn: there has to be things that change. There has to be more support given the teacher shortage. Oh my gosh. Could you imagine if there were two teachers per classroom? First of all, you have an adult to bounce things off of and manage the kids. And second, like if one adult is sick, the other dog can easily take over and manage for a few days, you know, there’s so much, so

Brie Tucker: there’s so much, but okay. So, so much change that needs to happen. Let’s start by making a movement. With Jo’s book Charlotte Walsh Likes To Win. We are going to make it happen.

JoAnn Crohn: I feel like No Guilt Mom, first of all, is that movement

Brie Tucker: are, we are, but we are going to make, we’re gonna make it,

JoAnn Crohn: we’re going to do a book

Brie Tucker: this too. We’re gonna bring in our second Jo, Jo number two,

JoAnn Crohn: And honestly, if like you weren’t on the no guilt mom mailing list by now, I’m so sorry, but you’ve missed out. We’ve already started the book club. It’s already, it’s already going, which is why you should probably get on the mailing list right now. So you don’t miss it. These things and you could do that just by grabbing, we have some chat GPT prompts for you that will make your home life easier.

It’ll plan your grocery list, your meal planning and everything for your exact family needs. So grab those below. Or you can go to balance for moms. com forward slash prompts, P R O M P T S. And grab those and then you’ll be notified on everything. You can hang out with us who are really cool people. I’ll We’re cool. We’re taking compliments now and we’re cool. And of course we are. Yes.

Brie Tucker: I am pretty cool. And you know what, JoAnn, you are pretty cool. We are

JoAnn Crohn: Well, thank you. We’re a pretty awesome. You’re awesome as well. We eat, we eat free. We don’t eat, no,

Brie Tucker: my daughter got something for her birthday and I was like, Oh, that’s so fat. And she’s like, looked at me and I’m like, what? That means cool. Right. And I look at her and my son and they’re like, no, no, that doesn’t mean cool

JoAnn Crohn: I’m, I’m not allowed to say the word Riz ever. And I was told when I referred to 11 and 13 year olds as preteens, that that was the cringest thing I’ve ever said in my entire life, by the way, so,

Brie Tucker: Oh god.

JoAnn Crohn: so there’s that. But until next time, remember the best mom’s a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker: Thanks for stopping by.