Podcast Episode 360: Your Teen’s Not Lazy—They’re Disengaged (And Here’s What to Do About It) Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

Jenny Anderson (00:00.694)

So mode one is passenger mode. That’s where kids are coasting along doing the bare minimum. More than 50 % of kids said that they show up to school this way. Resistor mode is when they’re withdrawing and acting out. These kids are often dubbed the problem children. Achiever mode is where kids are seeking to get gold stars in everything that’s put in front of them. They are striving for perfection often and often at all costs.

JoAnn Crohn (0:26:200)

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host JoAnn Crohn, joined here by the lovely Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker (00:31.700)

Hello, hello everybody, how are you?

JoAnn Crohn (0:35:700)

Brie’s a little less pappy today because she is dealing with some back pain that I continuously call her out on to everybody that we have an interview with.

Brie Tucker (00:44.696)

Brie is coming to you live from her bed with pillows. But hey, not even a back injury will keep me from this podcast. We are here and we are excited.

JoAnn Crohn (0:55:720)

We are so, excited because these two people that we are interviewing, they were recommended to us by our friend, Ned Johnson. And you know, every time we bring Ned Johnson on the podcast, my gosh, he has just a wealth of knowledge in terms of motivation. So when he recommended the disengaged teen, the book to us, we were like, yes, definitely. And I’ve been reading it and it is guys, you have to go get this book. You have to get this book. And you’re going to see why right after our interview with

the lovely Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop. So let me introduce them to you right now. Jenny Anderson is an award winning journalist, author and speaker with more than 25 years of experience. Her work has appeared in some of the world’s leading publications, including the New York Times, where she was on staff for 10 years, Time, the Atlantic and Courts. Rebecca Winthrop is a leading global authority on education. She is the director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings and an adjunct

professor at Georgetown University. She is a highly sought after advisor and speaker, including by parent networks, school leaders, the White House, the United Nations, and Fortune 500 companies. And they have come together and they have written a book called The Disengaged Teen, which we are going to be discussing today. So let’s get on with the show.

JoAnn Crohn (02:16.088)

You want mom life to be easier. That’s our goal too. Our mission is to raise more self-sufficient and independent kids and we’re going to have fun doing it. We’re going to help you delegate and step back. Each episode we’ll tackle strategies for positive discipline, making our kids more responsible and making our lives better in the process. Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast.

and

JoAnn Crohn (02:50.102)

Welcome Rebecca and Jenny to the podcast. We are so happy to have you in two very different time zones than our own. Jenny started the conversation. Jenny, you’re in London right now.

Jenny Anderson (3:01.700)

I am in London. Hi, thank you for having us. So happy to be here.

And Rebecca, we didn’t ask where he-

you.

Rebecca Winthrop (3:07.421)

I am based in Washington DC and it’s lovely to be talking with you guys.

JoAnn Crohn (03:12.465)

yeah, so we have total East coast and UK going on with us today, Bri.

Brie Tucker (3:15.850)

Love this and then and then we’re bringing in the West Coast West side.

JoAnn Crohn (03:23.200)

Definitely. So your book, The Disengaged Teen, like I am not a waste no time because I want to get into it immediately. I am not kidding when I have been sharing your information with all of our Balanced Community members. I go on live every morning and I’m like, guys, you have to hear these modes of engagement. And I explain the modes of engagement to them and ask them to identify what their kids were in. And so let’s back up a little bit because you saw a problem.

with kids and education. Can you describe the problem that you saw?

Rebecca Winthrop (3:56.800)

Sure. We really wanted to know why kids don’t love school. And we know they don’t love school because we asked them. We have a partner, TransSymp.

Brie Tucker (04:03.746)

And they are happy to tell you that too, right?

Rebecca Winthrop (4:08.300)

And this is not news to any parent in your network, but in third grade, 75 % of kids say they love school and by 10th grade, it’s 25%. And lo and behold, how you feel about school really influences how much effort and motivation and engagement you put into it. So it actually matters how kids feel when they’re in school.

Rebecca Winthrop (04:35.734)

And that is a, it’s a huge problem. And a lot of kids are deeply disengaged, especially once they hit middle school and high school.

Brie Tucker (04:42.500)

I agree.

JoAnn Crohn (04:44.200)

Yeah, and I have to say the word engagement, by the way, gives me a little PTSD from being a teacher because I was a fifth grade teacher and this is how they would evaluate us in our teacher evaluations. The principal would come in for one 30 minute lesson. They would look around the room and they would give me a percentage of how many kids were quote unquote engaged. And what I love about your book is that you-

Rebecca Winthrop (05:11.550)

I see why you have PTSD by the way, and I see why we’re validating for you.

JoAnn Crohn (05:18.67)

Yeah, because the principal could not tell if they were engaged. Because you have discovered these four modes of engagement that kids are in when they are learning. Can we go through those four ones and can you explain those to us?

Jenny Anderson (5:37.580)

Sure. And can I just build on your point, which is the reason that they can’t tell in their 30 minute visit to you is the engagement is so many things. It’s how kids think, it’s how they feel, it’s how they behave, and it’s how they initiate. And that is going to be very tricky to see in one 30 minute session. I will dive in on the mode. So we found that kids show up for their learning in four dynamic modes.

These aren’t identities, they’re labels, we’re not pigeonholing kids. Kids can move around them all sorts of ways, but sometimes they get stuck. So mode one is passenger mode. That’s where kids are coasting along, doing the bare minimum. More than 50 % of kids said that they show up to school this way. Resistor mode is when they’re withdrawing and acting out. These kids are often dubbed the problem children. Achiever mode is where kids are seeking to get gold stars in everything that’s put in front of them.

They are striving for perfection often and often at all costs. And Explorer Mode is the top of the engagement mountain. This is where we want all kids. This is where curiosity meets drive. This is where kids dig in. They don’t give up. They’ve got resilience and they’ve got an internal sense of why they’re doing what they’re doing. They know how to set a goal for themselves and they know how to pick different strategies and then change strategies if they need to. That’s Explorer Mode. And that’s our hope is that parents and teachers help kids have.

as many explorer moments as possible.

Brie Tucker (07:02.35)

Okay, I think I’m gonna really seriously need your help because I have two teams. I have a senior and a junior. And listening to you say those modes, I have seen them be in the first three. One of them it moves back and forth between the first and the second. And another one.

JoAnn Crohn (07:18.450)

The resistor and the achiever.

Brie Tucker (07:20.300)

Yeah, And you know exactly what I’m talking about. And then I have another one who’s stuck in the gold star one, who I think might be kind of starting to move into one a little bit because it’s senioritis. I’ll say senioritis, but I don’t think I’ve had any and mode for since, you you talked about earlier since like fifth grade, maybe. So that’s interesting. I okay. I am teach me. I am a sponge.

Rebecca Winthrop (07:47.200)

Well, you can tell, and Jenny and I also have two teens. She has two girls, I have two boys. And you can, we experimented on them in addition to all the wide ranging research we did.

Brie Tucker (07:56.000)

Love that!

It’s the best when you have living guinea pigs. What can I say?

Rebecca Winthrop (08:06.100)

Yes,

You really can tell when kids have been in explore mode in school because when they come home and you say, hi, sweetie, how was your day? how, you know, the basic opening inquiry, instead of saying fine, boring, whatever, you know, good, okay. They just start voluntarily without any prompting, talking about something that they learned.

Rebecca Winthrop (08:29.902)

So

We were eating meat and he was like, blah, blah, blah, like meat processing. And he would not shut up about it. And I was like, wow, he had been given an opportunity not just to read the book, but like go out and do some like hands-on experimenting around it or concepts in it. And it’s really obvious. It just doesn’t happen much. We get so used to his parents and sort of what can we do? You know, we feel powerless.

Brie Tucker (09:24.600)

We see it and then it’s almost like we sometimes settle, right? I don’t know if settle is the right word, JoAnn. Like, what do you think? 

JoAnn Crohn (09:31.200)

It’s like we just, it expect it almost because you’re told that your teens are just gonna be blase and it’s gonna be a hard few years and so you kind of hunker down and try to just go through it without really considering if what they are studying right now in school or what they’re learning right now in school is actually interesting and engaging to them. Right now I know a lot of parents like have the question about like how do I get my kids to actually do their schoolwork?

And I’ve always seen that as just such a complicated question because it’s not just about making kids do the work, it’s so much more. And I want to find out both of your answers to this right after this. So right before the break, we were talking about this question that many parents have. How do I make my kids do their schoolwork? I personally think they’re asking the wrong question, but I want to hear both of your ideas about that in your take.

Jenny Anderson (10:34.000)

So I’ll jump in. I think, as we mentioned, a lot of kids, over 50 % are in passenger mode. They are sort of coasting along and these are often the kids we, as parents, we find it very frustrating to get them to do their homework. They’re very happy to be with their friends, maybe play video games, do other stuff, but when it comes to doing their homework, it’s really hard. And we do the thing that all parents…

do out of a sense of love and frustration and despair, which is nag them. And we show in the book and we kind of know in our heart of hearts that nagging doesn’t work. There’s this great study where like we stick teenagers in brain scanners and have the voice of their mom nagging them. And basically the problem solving part of their brain shuts down. So we know this intuitively, but we should remind ourselves in the moment that nagging really isn’t going to get the trick done because what we’re trying to do is get them to build that self drive and that motivation.

So counter-intuitively, honestly, the thing, and you’re right, not everything works for everyone, so I don’t want to promise a silver bullet, but surprisingly, giving these kids more autonomy to make more decisions about doing their homework, how they do their homework, when they’re gonna do their homework, when they plan on getting their homework done by having that latitude versus us just nagging them to get it done, that is what ultimately produces

some bad consequences, right? Some negative feedback, maybe from a teacher, maybe from school, and a feedback mechanism by which they get to feel that and then see if they respond differently, right? And we do have to help them make a plan. We just shouldn’t be their plan. So we shouldn’t be telling them, have to get this done by, you know, dinner, or you’re not gonna get any, you know, any video games afterwards. It’s much more of a, what’s your plan for getting it done?

Brie Tucker (12:17.966)

As a recovering nagger or someone who fights the impulse to nag.

Rebecca Winthrop (12:23.902)

We are too, by the way. We are too. We all do it.

Brie Tucker (12:26.500)

Love it. 

What do you do when you you’ve been trying to do this and they give you their plan or their plan is I don’t know I’ll figure it out and you’re like that’s not a plan.

JoAnn Crohn (12:38.350)

Yeah, that’s a good question.

Brie Tucker (12:40.500)

Like, you know their plan is going to fail. Let’s just say that.

Rebecca Winthrop (12:45.268)

If you know their plan is going to fail, but it’s a real plan, let them do it. If it’s all figured out, that’s not a plan. I was a terrible nagger. And I talked about my passenger mode boy who’s lovely and smart and fabulous, but total coaster, self-avowed passenger. And we were just getting into it. And it was just so…

annoying. Like a lot of the day was like, when you did you do your homework? Did you do your homework? Do before dinner? Do before? Okay, you didn’t? Okay, do it after dinner. When you didn’t do your homework, you have to go to bed, you need sleep. And like, it was me sort of spinning out of control and him the more I spun out, he would, the more he backed away and was like, want nothing. So I didn’t sort of, you know, in the research process, pilot this like makeup plan, which was like, okay, how much do you have? How long? Like, and the truth was, he didn’t know how to make

this.

Rebecca Winthrop (13:38.89)

He didn’t really know you had to think about how long it would take and then put some times against it. Like he would just be like, okay, I’ll do it after dinner. And I was like, okay, no, no, no. Like what do you need to do? How much time? And then see what you have to do ever since you get home from school. And then like literally write it down on a piece of paper, like in your little, like we got him a little planner. Like, so I had to, it took a couple of weeks of like, you know, we would call scaffolding. It’s JoAnn, you know, as an educator.

And it has made a difference. He’s a lot more self-motivated. He’s not like a revolutionized into an achiever, but he gets fairly good grades and he’s learned some good executive function skills that he’s going to need to get through the work.

Jenny Anderson (14:20.000)

Rebecca just mentioned one thing that I think is so important, which is not just having him make the plan, but also recognizing, maybe predicting a little bit some of the obstacles that might get in the way. So what might get in the way of you finishing this plan? And how are we going to deal with that when it comes up? So you’re anticipating a little bit, you you’re going to want to get a snack and then you get a snack and then you play with the dog and you play with the dog and then you’re, you know, at the front door and you kind of want to, then maybe you even want to clean your room because you’re getting so good at procrastinating at this point. So it’s like,

helping them reflect on that and then build plans around that.

JoAnn Crohn (14:52.526)

It’s amazing how like the desire to clean your room happens when you’re procrastinating on something that you don’t want to get that. I get that way for sure. So what I’m hearing so far is that you need to give your kids autonomy. You need to give them choices. And you also like are there to kind of like back them up in the total planning stage of it. Because I have to tell you one thing with teens and even like tweens as well, even though my child, both my children tell me that.

me saying the word tween is really cringy and people don’t say that anymore. I called my son a tweenager in public and he died. 

Jenny Anderson (15:34.658)

I’m done for him. I might be with him on that one.

Brie Tucker (15:39.150)

Another wait, is there another name? Another name we’re supposed to be using?

Rebecca Winthrop (15:46.262)

You could ask them to make it up. You could start it here. We could start it here. We could have a new youth identified term.

JoAnn Crohn (15:56.800)

But like they could be so confident. They could like tell you to your face, mom, I got this. You do not need to help me. And it’s totally like, you could just see it just goes downhill and downhill. So I love Rebecca, how you said like, sit down with them, make a plan. The fact that Q parents and if you’re listening right now, one of the little roadblocks, little

bumps in the road might be that they don’t know to put times with their plan. So know that coming in when you sit down with your team. With these modes of engagement, like something that I experienced as a teacher and the reason I was like, my gosh, like I was right reading your book, you gave me so much validation is because every year before testing season, I felt like I was just constrained as a teacher, like cups around my back.

They made me stay to the curriculum. I had to write these lesson plans on my desk. I had so many behavior problems in my classroom when I was like being restrained to that method of teaching versus after testing season where they didn’t check in at all. We had six weeks. They didn’t even care because the test scores were in. And I got to design my own stuff in which I had my kids do a digital storytelling project where we taught them video editing and they did a science thing.

JoAnn Crohn (17:16.578)

They were so… Well, they were so into it, so engaged, no behavior problems whatsoever, kids taking agency and authority. So I guess my question is, is I just want like, I hope that you can give me a little hope. What can we do for our kids if they are in school environments like this, where the teacher’s hands are basically behind their backs? Like, how can we get them engaged in learning, I guess?

Rebecca Winthrop (17:45.918)

It’s a real issue and this is the reason we wrote this book to be for parents and then secondarily for teachers and education leaders. Because parents actually have a huge role to play when motivating your kids. When parents and educators are on the same page and have trust, those schools are 10 times more likely to be improving. So we just don’t realize how much of a role we have to play. we can’t always, as an individual parent, change our child’s

school, that’s a systemic problem. And frankly, we always say this is not a teacher problem. Teachers are squished in the middle from a bad system and also pressure from parents. They’re squished from below. so parents can be that bridge that kids need. They can talk about the content of kids learning, not just the outcomes and the grades. They can model the thrill and excitement of their own curiosity, which is actually contagious.

and kids will bring it back to the classroom. They can talk to the kids about the skills they’re learning. Like, hey, I know it’s testing season. I guess you’re really having to focus. I know it might be a little boring, not so much fun, but hey, those are great skills of like really just cognitive discipline and almost like building up your physical strength to sit and finish something. I just had to do that. I just had budget season at work, whatever it is, make a comparison. I had to sit for like three straight days and like get through this, you know,

I personally find budget boring. you know, not that this is a personal example or anything. So you can really, you know, help your kids through the different times and periods when teachers are constrained and they can build, explore muscles and become explorers outside of school.

Jenny Anderson (19:38.136)

So one of the things we talk a lot about is really leaning into their interests. You just identified this, right? You did something in class and they were completely engaged. Every kid wants to learn how to do video editing. That is just such a perfect way of getting them engaged. think the parental sort of equivalent of that is like, what is your kid interested in and help them develop that sort of passion and interest in that. So you get that positive flywheel spinning, which is…

I’m interested, I dig in, I get better, I want more, I do more, I get even better, and then I want to do more. As Rebecca said, that can spill over, right? And what you’re trying to do is energize your kid and give them the feeling of that spark and that motivation and that fire. And once they have that feeling, you can say, hey, that can happen anywhere. Like it might not be happening for you in math right now. Doesn’t mean it’s not going to happen in math in another time, but you can build that spark anywhere.

right? And so it’s communicating. sometimes think these things are very obvious to kids. Of course they’re not. They don’t know yet, right, that that can spill over. But I think oftentimes when kids aren’t performing in school, we take their interests away, right, instead of leaning into them. And that might be what they need to develop the motivation and the energy to kind of get going.

Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (20:49.994)

Yes, absolutely. I want to talk about extracurriculars in regards to that, because it seems like extracurriculars would be a great place for kids to explore those interests. But I also see that parents are really overloaded with the amount of extracurriculars their kid has. And so I want to get into that right after this.

Okay, Jenny and Rebecca, let’s talk about extracurricular activities, because I see them having like, there’s two sides. There’s the kids who are allowed to explore their interest in extracurricular activities. And then there are the kids who are told to do extracurricular activities because it’ll look good on a college application. I want to hear your take on this.

Rebecca Winthrop (21:35.180)

I think Jenny and I would argue that go deep, not broad. Every single college admissions officer has a red flag up when kids have some interest. And then junior year, all of a sudden they’re engaged in like 17 different clubs and they know it’s not authentic or real. And they’re actually not looking for that. They’re looking for deep sort of real authentic commitment and impact. So that’s one, because it is very stressful for parents to try to do right by their kid. And that’s what we’re told.

You can all take a deep breath and relieve that worry. Like my kids, actually restrict them. I was like, you can do two extracurriculars. You can do one sporty physical thing and one other thing. And that’s it. First of all, you need sleep. And by the way, I work. I can’t be running around like a crazy person to all these things. So they each do like my son does track and he does piano and my other son does parkour and he does like Dungeons and Dragons and all this creative stuff. So, and that’s fine. That’s plenty. And

The other piece about extracurriculars that I think is really important that Jenny talked about before the break is the benefits will be multifold if it’s really their help, your kids spark. So help them find their spark. We know that only 30 % of kids who are getting Cs and Ds get access to extracurricular in the arts versus 60 % of kids getting A’s. So when your kids’ grades start slipping, and this is true for extracurriculars and sports and other things,

Rebecca Winthrop (23:02.594)

when your kids’ grades start slipping, one of the things that they need is an avenue that they are excited about that they’re good at. And schools pull kids out of extracurriculars when they start failing academically, or not failing, but slipping. And parents do too. And we think we’re doing the right thing, and it’s actually almost the wrong thing to do. And it actually gets kids into the resistor mode faster. They need something they’re excited about. It builds learning muscles.

It builds motivation and engagement. builds an identity and a self-confidence that they then can bring back into the real world and in school. And Jenny, what would you add?

Jenny Anderson (23:40.600)

Yeah, I think in particular with kids stuck in Achiever mode or in Achiever mode, I think it is really hard because they want to do more because they have internalized that more is always better. So this is a mode where I think this can really become a problem. I have this in my own life, both personally and my eldest daughter. And I think really it is our job as their parents to help them take the foot.

off the accelerator. And the challenge here is the system is insatiable. I know what Rebecca said is completely true with the college admissions officer and yet everybody, including teachers and from, you know, they’re doing their best too. They want the best for kids. I think they’re opening up avenues and a lot of parents think the same thing. More is better. And it’s not if it’s going to break your kid. And so you have to be really honest about where your kid is and how much more they can take on. I actively discourage taking on more things. I can tell you honestly that my kid is doing way more.

than I wish she was, but it’s less than she would be had I not been there as her buffer. And I say to her, is my job to keep you well-rested and safe. And if you do more, you will do more to such a standard that you could break. And I’m gonna make sure that doesn’t happen. So it is that I love you and I’m gonna protect you and you have to stay firm because you’re really bucking the system. You’re bucking the more is better and you’re bucking your kid who’s telling you, I wanna do more. And I know…

Jenny Anderson (25:04.666)

It sounds like we’re contradicting ourselves saying like, listen to your kids, don’t listen to your kids. Like when you see that they’re not, you know, doing something that’s good for them, you kind of have to be that. And I’ve gotten a lot of pushback and I’ve gotten a lot of like, don’t, you know, you don’t understand. I’m like,

Brie Tucker (25:19.100)

Gosh, that is a broken record in JoAnn’s and my house, but you don’t get it.

JoAnn Crohn (25:24.400)

Mom you’ve never been a teenager in 2020. You’ve never been. no.

Jenny Anderson (25:30.000)

I often say I probably don’t, but based on what I know, I’m going to do what I think is best for you. But I acknowledge that I might not understand how they feel in that moment, because I probably don’t.

JoAnn Crohn (25:40.700)

I agree, like there’s been many conversations I’ve had with my daughter because they have this thing now called the AP medallion where it’s like they take like all of these AP classes. They have to take a certain amount and then they graduate with their AP medallion. And this is something that, and I see Rebecca, you rolled your eyes there and everything. is the same way I feel about it.

Brie Tucker (26:01.564)

This is the firstI’m hearing about this. What is this?

JoAnn Crohn (26:03.800)

well, the AP medallion, she wanted to take all these AP classes that she wasn’t interested in at all. Like she was like, I need to take AP government. I need to take this. need because it is going to quote unquote look good for colleges. And we were sitting down and I’m like, listen, I don’t think colleges really care about your AP medallion. I want you just to be interested and enjoying life and not stressed out. There was a lot of pushback to that. And a lot of mom, you don’t know what you’re talking about to that. I.

doubted myself every step of the way. if any parents listen to this and they have their gut feeling that their kids are just taking on too much, trust that gut feeling. And then also make sure you go get this book, The Disengaged Teen, because it is going to validate so, so much for you. We always ask the same question to all of our guests, Jenny and Rebecca. What are you looking forward to right now?

Jenny Anderson (27:03.000)

I’ll start. This is Jenny. I’m looking forward to two things I’m going to cheat and give you two. One is we launched the book in the UK last week and I am doing a small book launch party at our local independent bookstore. And I’m so happy to thank the community that supported me through the writing of this book with the carpools and the feeding of my kids and the collecting of my kids and reminding me that the thing that needed to be done tomorrow was actually getting done.

often from another country. Anyways, so it’s so exciting to me to be able to thank that community. And also, Rebecca and I are going to ASU GSB, which is a big conference next week. And we are speaking on a big stage. And I’m just excited. It’s a really dynamic conference with lots of people there. And I think it’ll be fun to bring our message there. So I’m excited about those two things.

JoAnn Crohn (27:53.342)

That’s a lot of fun. Where Is that conference?

Jenny Anderson (27:55.500)

San Diego.

Brie Tucker (27:57.500)

Oh Perfect.

JoAnn Crohn (28:00.950)

What about you Rebecca?

Rebecca Winthrop (29:44.622)

I’m excited to really think about what explore mode can look like when you use AI. yeah. Because at Brookings, we’re really digging into how you use AI well, because at the moment I’m really worried it’s being used unwell in most education systems and for children’s learning, but also just their development. And there’s very little guidance on it. So we’re really digging into that. And I just think this idea of like, we should use artificial intelligence to help kids.

create more explore moments is actually the central goal. So I’m super excited to sort of start really digging into that and hopefully being helpful to parents and educators.

JoAnn Crohn (28:45.454)

I am so excited about that topic, Rebecca. I am a big AI user. Me too. And I love using it for creative problem solving because it gives you ideas that like…

Brie Tucker (28:55.800)

helps you move forward right it like helps yeah

JoAnn Crohn (29:00.000)

It’s like you amplified, but I could totally see how it could be used in the wrong way in an education setting or how kids are seeing

Rebecca Winthrop (29:07.352)

It could be used to create a lot more passenger mode kids. So when I’m seeing that being done, so what I really want is for us to all band together as a society so it can help create more explore moments.

JoAnn Crohn (29:21.600)

Yeah, my daughter was running for a student council executive officer and she had to do her campaign and she knew like a broad idea. She wanted to do Gossip Girl. And so we went to AI and we’re like, I want to do a Gossip Girl campaign. Here’s what I want to do. Like what other ideas do you have? And using brainstorming like that, it was really good for her and really ex I feel like she was in explore mode when she was doing it.

Rebecca Winthrop (29:44.622)

Totally. Yeah.

Jenny Anderson (29:46.900)

Well, my daughter just did a CV for her first work experience. And I said, you know, just type in everything that you do and you’re interested in and see what it does. And it came up with a really brilliant CV. And then I said, now you’ve got to rewrite the entire thing that’s in your voice. And she was like, okay. But she did. And I was like, she got all sorts of things wrong. And so was like a really fun exercise because it was all about her, right? But like, it doesn’t know her. And so it was this great starting point. She had something to work with.

and it really needed a full entire rewrite.

JoAnn Crohn (30:19.600)

But it’s like the cure to writer’s block because they’re almost easier doing the rewrite than it is coming up with it.

Rebecca Winthrop (30:26.400)

It can be a great tool to unlock explore mode, although I think at the moment it’s used to shortcut and create passenger mode. There’s a lot, not always, but a lot. One of the interviews for the book was, I’m just going to give this as a general synopsis, was a high school student who was like, yeah, yeah, I use AI. I take an essay question, I break it into three parts, I run it through three different generative AI tools. Then I…

Rebecca Winthrop (30:52.494)

bring it back and I run it through three different anti plagiarism tools. put it all together and I submit it. It takes like, you know, half a day versus like three hours versus three days. It’s great. I love it. So, and students are the number one user of chat. GPT, I believe from open AI.

JoAnn Crohn (31:10.900)

That is really interesting. It’s so interesting because it does have so many great benefits. And like, I could talk about this forever, but I’ll end it really soon. Because another great thing for teens, especially like teens who have a lot of anxiety, who may not know what to expect in situations is job interviews. Like that’s something that we also had her use AI for, practicing for her executive officer interview with the school principal. And it’s like, ask me questions.

like what you would ask for this position.

Rebecca Winthrop (31:43.494)

And it does it through voice. It does it not even typing. You can talk to it and it can talk back. Like it’s, it is incredible.

Brie Tucker (31:49.200)

Here I am just using it to meal plan and come up with ideas for dinner.

JoAnn Crohn (31:54.200)

There you go.

Rebecca Winthrop (31:54.500)

Travel. Travel. Oh, it’s the best. You don’t ever have to…

Jenny Anderson (32:01.94)

I hadn’t thought of that one yet.

Rebecca Winthrop (32:05.500)

Like I have to go here, I wanna do here, I wanna do seven fun things over the next three days of my children’s spring break. What do I do?

JoAnn Crohn (32:12.550)

Do remember how I did Christina’s birthday bucket list in Vegas free of a, we took her. Yeah, that was from AI. Yeah, it’s awesome. Well, thank you so much Jenny and Rebecca for joining us here. You have given us so much to think about in terms of your modes of engagement and also how we can encourage our kids to be learners. Please go out and get Jenny and Rebecca’s book, The Disengaged Teen. And thank you again.

Rebecca Winthrop (32:38.166)

Thank you guys.

JoAnn Crohn (32:42.200)

So I am serious that I have total PTSD about the engagement thing from when I was a teacher, Brie.

Brie Tucker (32:48.750)

Oh I can only imagine like the way that as soon as you said that them coming in and for 30 minutes and telling you who’s engaged. I’m like, I know I am, you know this just from working with me. I am in and out all the time. Yeah. So like.

JoAnn Crohn (33:03.400)

Yeah, I used to get like 93 % engagement and you’re like as a teacher, you’re like, I know who those two kids are who were not.

JoAnn Crohn (33:12.686)

You know, it didn’t even like it wasn’t that I wasn’t aware of the fact that they weren’t engaged. It was like I have tried to use every single tool in my arsenal and well, but also like it’s not even the the kids were engaged like the 92 % who they said were engaged. They weren’t engaged. It was like hacks. I would do it was like, okay, I’m gonna say this word. Let’s repeat it. Okay, let’s clap. Let’s do some movement. Let’s do some dance. It wasn’t true like Explorer mode like Rebecca and Jenny talk.

Brie Tucker (33:42.500)

And let’s also just be fair to teachers. And I can say this as someone who has a deep love for teachers. Like people know this, my background is in early childhood. I am not a teacher at all. I love kids and I love working with kids. Any more than two at a time, I start to pull my hair out.

JoAnn Crohn (34:03.000)

my gosh, I love war.

Brie Tucker (34:04.500)

Right? Yeah. And that’s like, I think that’s, that’s part of our thing, our yin and our yang between the two of us. Like I like one-on-one smaller kids. You like bigger kids, bigger groups. And that’s great because it is freaking hard to like get a group to, you’re hurting cats, trying to get them together and trying to get a classroom of, okay, let’s, let’s just go on the nicer, more optimistic side. Let’s say you only had 20, 25 kids in your classroom, right?

trying to get 20, 25 people engaged in what you’re talking about that they didn’t pick. It’s not like they said, I’m going to go to school today because I love what my teacher is talking about. Like they’re not choosing it. They’re there because there are things that they need to learn. They don’t know what they don’t know. And then just trying to keep everybody engaged. That’s just to me, it seems unfair. So I have PTSD for your PTSD. Actually, no, I’m mad about your PTSD. It’s not fair.

JoAnn Crohn (35:03.746)

I mean, as a teacher, and all teachers know this, like you get to know your students. The most stressful and tiring times of the whole school year was at the beginning for me, like a week where I was getting to know the personalities in my classroom. But as soon as you start to know the personalities, you know who’s gonna like be enthralled with this thing. You’re gonna know who’s gonna be enthralled with this thing. And you’re gonna know, okay, this one is to use Jenny and Rebecca’s term, a resistor.

and I need to dial in a little bit more and figure out what’s going on there. But what I love about their book is that it’s not just the resistors that we as parents and then secondly, educators need to be concerned about. It’s actually the kids who are just coasting along and are doing like showing no signs of trouble whatsoever. And those achievers, because I could definitely look back and see who was an achiever in my classroom, who are doing everything for the gold stars.

The only time I did see exploring in my classroom was when we had project work, because then kids were able to really design their own path with, of course, like some structure from me as a teacher. it’s so important for kids to have this. I want to tell you yesterday, my son, he has been not wanting to go back to school. He does not like school.

he finds it boring sometimes, he finds it pointless. like one teacher in particular, he just doesn’t enjoy at all because he changes classes, he’s in sixth grade. So he came home yesterday and that moment that Jenny and Rebecca were talking about how you know your kids are in explorer mode when they just tell you everything, he was at the dinner table and he’s like, yeah, so we’re designing chariots and we’re gonna have chariot races at school. And like, I’m designing this part and like my friend’s designing this part and like,

I’m like, thank you. His school, I like, I always am a fan of, but thank you for giving him a project that he can have agency in and he could do stuff with because, it’s the best gift as a parent when your kids are excited.

Brie Tucker (37:11.534)

is it so is I love the fact that they were able to help point out the four different modes because I’m a big person where I like I don’t want to say a diagnosis but I like a label I like labels labels help me figure out what compartment things belong in and

JoAnn Crohn (37:29.400)

and they help you communicate. They help everybody communicate.

Brie Tucker (37:31.900)

 Right,  Because like once you know what you’re up against, then you know what to do next. So like, yeah, I loved hearing that and hearing that they can move between them. They’re not pigeon held in one area or not. And my gosh, when she talked about the planner part, it just reminded me having working with you is when I realized because you were saying how like kids are given these planners, but they’re not told how to use them, how to properly do that.

It’s like a huge light bulb. Like, my gosh, yeah, they’re not. Like, that’s where we do need to help support our kids, even from a young age. Don’t have to wait till, I mean, I wouldn’t want to wait till a teenager to try to get them to start figuring out how to plan things.

JoAnn Crohn (38:10.290)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, go get The Disengaged Teen by Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop. We’re going to have a link for you in the show notes to go and grab that book. So worth the read. Even if you do not have a current teenager, please go and get it because the engagement modes that they’re talking about in this book, they apply to all kids. I I was a fifth grade teacher. I could definitely see this going on in my classroom as well. Go get the book. Go get the book. Go get the book. And with that.

JoAnn Crohn (38:40.218)

Remember, the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you. And we’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker (38:44.000)

Thanks for stopping by.